NagoyaHammer.com

On August 15th we will be holding another event in Nagoya.
８月１５日, 名古屋に、別のイベントを行います。
We'd like to invite everyone to O-bomb!, a 1 day Warhammer 40,000 tournament.　
「O-bomb!」（爆弾）は１日のみのウォーハンマー40,000トーナメントです。是非来て下さい。


The tournament will consist of 3 games played over the day.
トーナメントは、1日間で計3ゲームを行います。
5th edition Warhammer 40,000 rules.
最新版ウォーハンマー４０，０００のルールで行います。

Official Codexes and Forge World will be allowed.
ウォーハンマーのコデックスとフォージワールドで行います。
No Super Heavies, Flyers or Gargantuan Creatures.
スーパーヘヴィー、フライヤーズ、ガーガンチュアンクリーチュアーズは使用出来ません。
Everyone must have a printed copy of their own codex (whether a real book or a Japanese PDF).
各自、コデックスのコピーを持参してください。（本でも日本語版PDFでもどちらでも構いません。）
Everyone must bring their own dice, tape measure (we'll be using inches not cm) and templates.
サイコロ、テープメジャー、テンプレーツ（型板）は、各自でご用意下さい。（ゲームでは、センチメートルではなく、インチを適用します）

A tray to carry your models between tables will be useful.
モデルを移動する際、トレーの様な入れ物を持参して頂けると、非常に助かります。
All armies should be painted to a minimum of three colours.
持参するアーミーは、全て3色以上にペイントして頂けるようお願いします。

All scenery will be provided so there is no need to bring your own.
情景モデルは、こちらでご用意しますので、各自でご用意する必要はございません。



To cover the costs of hiring the room and prizes there will be a charge of 2500 yen.　Food and drink is not included, but there are lots of reasonable places to eat nearby.
参加費用は、￥2,500となります。（ルームチャージや賞金等全てを含む）
但し、飲食は含まれておりません。開催場所の近くにいくつかリーズナブルな飲食店がございます

Sounds fun, but it's only 50-50 whether I can make it or not. It being School hols and all.

Could I play starting in the second round? Or do I have to be there at the start to enter...

I can only come for the first and third games and I'd only like to play easy beats and I'd only like to play opponents without Forge World and definitely not the Admiral

P.S. That was a joke BTW

On a serious note, even though I might not be able to make it, I would like to see NO Forge World models allowed. If you want to know my reasons why, I have a long, reasoned diatribe prepared.

I would love to go, sadly I'll be stateside at the time.

With the limitations on Forge World of no superheavies, gargantuan creatures or flyers, there isnt an awful lot else available. The way I see it, is that Forge World IS Games Workshop so there is no reason why they shouldnt be allowed in any game. The models look cool, cost more than regular plastic and generally speaking have a higher points cost than regular units. Please feel free to diatribe away.

Admiral-Badruck wrote:Could I play starting in the second round? Or do I have to be there at the start to enter...

If you cant make round 1 thats fine, but you will be missing the points from the first game so unless you do exceptionally well, you probably wont win. Be nice to have you there though.

WARNING - Ranting Ahead!

With all due respect:

The case against including Forge World stuff in a tournament:

1) What other tourneys do.

BOLScon - NO Forgeworld at all. Models may be used to represent codex units.

Adepticon - Yes, it's actively encouraged. However, this tourney is 2250pts and allows all types of units (including titans) and apocalypse formations.

GW tourneys - Oddly enough a quick peek around their own website revealed no info. on the topic. Thanks I suspect they are not allowed. Can someone shed light on this?

2) Availability

Forge World Rules are not available in Japanese. As we know some J.players do have FW models, but the language barrier is a significant one. Can you explain a Deathstorm drop pod rules sufficiently to a non-English speaker?

Even for English speaking players the rules are NOT readily available. A quick query to certain parties that have been known to torrent such things reveals they are not available online. The only way to actually peruse the rules is to have the book or books in your hands. Basic codex rules are available legally and otherwise from a variety of sources.

3) Balance

Despite the No Flyers, Super Heavies, Gargantuan Creatures rule, certain armies have a lot more options available if FW is allowed. A quick peek at the FW shows the following units that are potentially available (Caveat: Not having access to the rules, I can’t be sure these are accurate counts as I can’t be sure what the units count as):

Imperial Guard: 16 units, not including variations on existing models.
Tau: 8 non-codex Battle suit and drone choices
Space Marines: 8 non-codex units and special characters, again not including things like Land Raider variants.
Orks: At least 5 but possibly more because again I can’t access the rules to check.
Chaos: A toughy. Daemons appear to have 4, Chaos Marines appear to have one, a special character. Can they be allied, or used across both armies? What about renegades? Again no access to the rules.
Tyranids: 1
Eldar: 1
Necrons: 0
Dark Eldar: 0

4) In-game

I actually wouldn’t mind playing against any of the FW stuff in a friendly match as long as I had at least a vague idea what I would be facing (see above). However being handed a list with 4 FW units on it that I have only heard rumors of is a bit off IMHO. There’s a difference between knowing one’s enemy and being blind-sided with rules one doesn’t have reasonable access to.

5) Anti-fluff

This is a sticky one to argue but let’s try. Nurgle, Fast skimmers with Large Blast AP3 weapons. That used to be an oxymoron. However, now it’s a reality. Oh yeah, I’m gonna take 9 of them as my fast attack choices. The same goes for the new Chinork. Come on, a fast, open topped, skimmer for the Green uns. Can you say Dork Eldah?

6) My experience

I’ve played exactly 2 tournament/event games against FW games. The first, against a certain M_i_J went well. He had a Firestorm, a variant on a Falcon with a slightly improved version of an existing weapon. Not such a big problem, and by the way, despite what he maintains, I kicked his butt.

Game two, was at the inaugural Nagoya hammer. My opponent was a real nice guy and had the game gone a bit longer I might not have lost (Yeah right). But facing 9 Drop pods, 4 of which were FW was not fun. 2 were Deathstorms, Sure they can scatter ( we all know how frightening scatter is to SM) but that was small solace. Sure the missiles can hit his troops, but if you can place them basically wherever you like then that isn’t a problem either. Oh yeah, they are AP4 as well, which means no-one besides SM actually get a save against them. I also estimate we would have had at least another game turn if it weren’t for the fact that my opponent had to resolve 10-15 barrages and their effects in two of his turns. Then there was the variant that lets Dreadnaughts assault in the turn they arrive. WTF? I don’t want to cry broken or use the G.word but it’s mighty tempting. I can almost hold my tongue when I’m playing codex stuff that seems a bit off but when it’s stuff I have hardly even heard of…

7) Do you really need ‘em.

If the above don’t move you, then how about this: Can’t you win with what’s in your codex?

So there ya’ go. It’s not my tournament and the organizers can do what they like but I think that the above is something that needed saying.

Cheers

Mike the Pike
Advocate for Mr. Louis Cypher

oooh! oooh! *dave gets all excited at the prospect of replying to a mike-rant*

ok...now...breathe....and....calm down....


ok

right: in order:

1) other tourneys: are other tourneys. They can do what they like. This is Stu's show. He should, equally, be able to do what he likes. As long as the legality of FW stuff is made clear beforehand, I reckon that it shouldnt be a problem.

2) FW rules availability: The FW rules are available in exactly the same way the codexes are available: by mail order over the internet. I dont know about you big city folks, but there aint nowhere near me that stocks a single GW product. If the ease-of-availability of an item affects it's usage in-game, then folks round here are gonna be playing 40k with pebbles. The fact that one or two FW books are difficult to find on torrent sites (and it is only one or two, btw.) really shouldnt affect their use in tournaments. I mean, it is illegal, after all. Not that I'd know anything about that, or anything...

Now, I'll add a caveat here with regards to one point you made: The language barrier. If FW rules are not available in Japanese, then I do think that any player who uses FW models should bring a copy of typed up Japanese rules to any tourney they go to. Fair play - it would suck to have a completely incomprehensible model put down in front of you then have your opponent gabble at you in crappy Japanese in an attempt to explain why your dudes are dead. He should at least be able to give you a piece of paper before the game, explaing how your dudes are going to die...

3) Balace: I do understand that the plethora of FW models can seem very daunting to players unfamilar with them, but really, in most games they just fade into the background. Folks often think unknown=dangerous, but in the case of FW, its often not so. In fact, FW have said on a number of occasions that their models are deliberately pointed high in order to offset the "unknown" factor. Dreadclaws being a case in point...

4) In game effect: How does one learn the rules for a FW mini? I'd ask: How does one learn about the contents of a codex which you dont own? One either buys all the codexes in an attempt to keep up with current rules, or one learns as one plays against them. (or, there is the torrent option, but we all know that's Bad and Wrong.) The exact same is true for FW stuff.

5) Anti-fluff: hmmn. Kinda a tricky one this. Is it OK for GW to release new units that deeply affect the balance of an army and go against established fluff (hhrrrmphbloodangelscodexhhrrrmph) but not for forge world to have a big demonic fly in their nurgle army?

6) Experience de Mike: Did I really use my Firestorm against you? That thing costs 180 points without upgrades, yknow, and I rarely use it because its drastically over-pointed. I'd take it if I suspected there might be flyers involved, but otherwise it's cripplingly pricey compared to a Falcon or similar. And you so didnt kick my butt...

re: game 2: OK, so he had a lot of drop pods. But the fact that there were FW ones in there shouldnt really have had much to do with the way the game played out. Assuming that we trust our opponents, we only have to look at a list before the game and ask "what does this do thats different from a regular drop pod". As long as he answers "a dred can assault out of this one and this one will wax your ass when it lands" then youre good to go. If you need specifics, then you can look at the IA book which the tourney rule say he must bring. The exact same thing would apply if my opponent put down a Valkyrie, Mad Doc Grotsnik, or most any Necron, simply because I've never played them and don't know their rules. You can't ban a mini from play simply because you personally are not familiar with it's rules.

7) Ah, but it's not really about the winning - it's about using and showing off your painstakingly painted and expensive mini that you saved for for ages. Unless youre a Tau player, in which case, no, you cant win without using them, and even then its girigiri.


So, that's what I see as being the flip side of Mike's arguments. And on that note, I'd like to add that I don't want folks to see this as an argument. The lack of inflection in the internet causes me no end of grief, so I'll add now "No offence intended or implied, Mike me ol' bean." . Incidentally, last time mike and I had wee debate like this, I should mention that he was ultimately proved right upon the release of a Forge World book!