Independence Day - June 23rd

[Primarch]

England is not in the Schengan agreement, so they could refuse entry (as I understand it) but they never did because cheap foreign labour is in the best interest of businesses.

Schengen is simply a removal of a need for passports to travel between member states. It's not related to migration beyond letting them in to the country. Since the UK also has Visa treaties with all EU states, all you need to enter the UK is a valid passport.
The right of an EU citizen to be employed in the UK is part of the Treaty of Maastricht and an important part of the single market. If someone can get a job, the government cannot refuse them the right to work in the UK. Getting the job can be a hassle of course, but at least they are employed and working.
One of the changes Cameron was hoping to get was to stop EU workers in the UK claiming child benefit for their kids in another country.

[Spevna]

England is not in the Schengan agreement, so they could refuse entry (as I understand it) but they never did because cheap foreign labour is in the best interest of businesses.

Schengen is simply a removal of a need for passports to travel between member states. It's not related to migration beyond letting them in to the country. Since the UK also has Visa treaties with all EU states, all you need to enter the UK is a valid passport.
The right of an EU citizen to be employed in the UK is part of the Treaty of Maastricht and an important part of the single market. If someone can get a job, the government cannot refuse them the right to work in the UK. Getting the job can be a hassle of course, but at least they are employed and working.
One of the changes Cameron was hoping to get was to stop EU workers in the UK claiming child benefit for their kids in another country.

But if they can't get a job within 6 months. they can be kicked out.
As far as I know, he negotiated an agreement where eu workers could not claim benefits until they'd paid into the system for 5 years.

[Primarch]

Under Maastricht, all EU citizens are entitled to full benefits in the country they are in, member states are not allowed to discriminate. Non-EU citizens aren't covered though.

From what I have seen, the deal Cameron came back with was that a country (not just the UK) could apply to the EU for the right to suspend payments to migrant workers for up to seven years if it felt that said payments were putting too much strain on the economy.
Cameron was also able to get an agreement to limit child support to the levels of the child's country of residence rather than paying the full UK value. This wasn't due to start till 2020 though.


So really the Brexit wasn't about "Migrants took our jobs."
It was "Migrants took our benefits!"

[Spevna]

Under Maastricht, all EU citizens are entitled to full benefits in the country they are in, member states are not allowed to discriminate. Non-EU citizens aren't covered though.

From what I have seen, the deal Cameron came back with was that a country (not just the UK) could apply to the EU for the right to suspend payments to migrant workers for up to seven years if it felt that said payments were putting too much strain on the economy.
Cameron was also able to get an agreement to limit child support to the levels of the child's country of residence rather than paying the full UK value. This wasn't due to start till 2020 though.


So really the Brexit wasn't about "Migrants took our jobs."
It was "Migrants took our benefits!"

If that's true,then Brexit was misleading.

Eu immigrants pay more into the system than they take out.
U.K. immigrants living in the EU take out mote than they put in.

[Primarch]

If that's true,then Brexit was misleading.

Eu immigrants pay more into the system than they take out.
U.K. immigrants living in the EU take out mote than they put in.

Misleading? You mean both sides lied through their back teeth at every turn.

According to figures given in the commons, there are 3mil EU immigrants in the UK and 2mil Brits in the EU. According to the EU the figures are 3.3mil and 1.2mil respectively. The British survey only checked with a couple of consulate offices and just multiplied the figures they received. The true numbers are probably somewhere between the two.

Of the EU citizens in the UK, 66% are employed. Some are working in the London trading companies, no doubt earning good salaries. Others are selling the Big Issue and get benefits in the same way as UK citizens.
Of the Brits overseas, most of them don't work. They are retired and usually financially independent, owning their own home. Locally, they haven't contributed, but they did pay into taxes and pension funds in the UK before they retired. The key difference however, is that while they do claim locally, pensions are contribution based whereas (for example) child support is not. The UK paid out an estimated 1.4bil GBP in pensions to ex-pats in Europe in 2015. In the same year, the NHS paid out 500mil GBP in medical bills for ex-pats in the EU.
So Brits living in Europe do claim a lot, though generally it is the British government who pays for a lot of them.

Or at least, that's what one set of statistics says.
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

As with most things political, unhealthy doses of salt are a requirement to understanding the claims around Brexit.

On the plus side, Rolls Royce have announced large stock price increases due to an expected increase in exports.

[Spevna]

If that's true,then Brexit was misleading.

Eu immigrants pay more into the system than they take out.
U.K. immigrants living in the EU take out mote than they put in.

Misleading? You mean both sides lied through their back teeth at every turn.

According to figures given in the commons, there are 3mil EU immigrants in the UK and 2mil Brits in the EU. According to the EU the figures are 3.3mil and 1.2mil respectively. The British survey only checked with a couple of consulate offices and just multiplied the figures they received. The true numbers are probably somewhere between the two.

Of the EU citizens in the UK, 66% are employed. Some are working in the London trading companies, no doubt earning good salaries. Others are selling the Big Issue and get benefits in the same way as UK citizens.
Of the Brits overseas, most of them don't work. They are retired and usually financially independent, owning their own home. Locally, they haven't contributed, but they did pay into taxes and pension funds in the UK before they retired. The key difference however, is that while they do claim locally, pensions are contribution based whereas (for example) child support is not. The UK paid out an estimated 1.4bil GBP in pensions to ex-pats in Europe in 2015. In the same year, the NHS paid out 500mil GBP in medical bills for ex-pats in the EU.
So Brits living in Europe do claim a lot, though generally it is the British government who pays for a lot of them.

Or at least, that's what one set of statistics says.
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

As with most things political, unhealthy doses of salt are a requirement to understanding the claims around Brexit.

On the plus side, Rolls Royce have announced large stock price increases due to an expected increase in exports.

The level of dishonesty from the Leave camp far outstrips anything from the remain camp. You can't equate the two

Dan Hannah, IDS, and Farage have all come clean on tv to about it. The EU workers will still be coming over, and the NHS will never see any of that 350,000,000.

Others are selling the Big Issue??? I think you mean a small minority of them.

[Primarch]

Others are selling the Big Issue??? I think you mean a small minority of them.

Yes, there are workers in huge banks and there are also people barely scraping by. I mentioned opposite ends of the spectrum rather than an average value.


Just to clarify a few points.

I don't particularly like the EU. It has some merits, but some of it's policies seem misguided or bias in favour of Germany/France. That said, I think Leaving is a mistake. The economic benefits outweigh the other factors.
I don't want the UK to break up, but if the Scots do vote for independence AND have a solid plan for what happens afterwards, then I wish them all the best.
I think an independent UK can be a success, there are some opportunities that present themselves if the UK is not in the EU.
Regardless of my own opinions on which camp was right/wrong/lying the most, I AM proud to be British! Everyone was given a chance to have their say on how the country is run. The process was fair and the voice of the people has been heard. Some countries don't allow voting of any kind, or political rivals get threatened/go missing. Whether the right choice was made or not, only time will tell.

[Spevna]

Everyone was given a chance to have their say on how the country is run. The process was fair and the voice of the people has been heard. Some countries don't allow voting of any kind, or political rivals get threatened/go missing. Whether the right choice was made or not, only time will tell.

I agree with you entirely on this point.

People were given a choice and they made it. Time to get on with it now.

I do think that there will be a lot of pissed off people in the near future though when they realise how thoroughly they have been lied to.

There'll be a lot more of this kind of stuff to look forward to;

"Marr considerately chose to start with something easy. Something tangible. The £350m per week that Vote Leave had said would be used to fund the NHS. “We never said that,” IDS replied.

“Yes you did. So even if there was £350m per week, which there isn’t, how are you going to fulfil all of your other spending promises?”

“We never made any commitments. We just made a series of promises that were possibilities.” Well, thanks for clearing that one up."

Still, anyone that is thick enough to believe a word that comes out of a Tory's mouth deserves everything that get.

[Primarch]

Still, anyone that is thick enough to believe a word that comes out of a Tory's mouth deserves everything that get.

Given that I know you are well aware of my political leanings, I'm going to assume that you weren't specifically thinking of me when you wrote that.

Broadly speaking, the Leave vote did very well among the poorer areas of the country rather than the more affluent ones. Those areas are not, (again broadly speaking), Tory supporting areas. Of course, there is no way to directly correlate which side of the political divide each voter fell on. Perhaps it was that mistrust of Tories that led to people rejecting Cameron's message in favour of Farage and BoJo?
I see from the BBC that Corbyn is having a hard time of it. There are allegations that he, or someone in his office, sabotaged the Labour Remain campaign by avoiding discussion of key topics and removing passages from party speeches.
So with the Lib Dems a non-starter, the Tories looking for a new leader, Labour imploding, that leaves... Sturgeon as the only real leader in the country? Sadly she isn't in Westminster, she'd have a field day!

[Spevna]

Still, anyone that is thick enough to believe a word that comes out of a Tory's mouth deserves everything that get.

Given that I know you are well aware of my political leanings, I'm going to assume that you weren't specifically thinking of me when you wrote that.

Broadly speaking, the Leave vote did very well among the poorer areas of the country rather than the more affluent ones. Those areas are not, (again broadly speaking), Tory supporting areas. Of course, there is no way to directly correlate which side of the political divide each voter fell on. Perhaps it was that mistrust of Tories that led to people rejecting Cameron's message in favour of Farage and BoJo?
I see from the BBC that Corbyn is having a hard time of it. There are allegations that he, or someone in his office, sabotaged the Labour Remain campaign by avoiding discussion of key topics and removing passages from party speeches.
So with the Lib Dems a non-starter, the Tories looking for a new leader, Labour imploding, that leaves... Sturgeon as the only real leader in the country? Sadly she isn't in Westminster, she'd have a field day!

You assume correctly. I mean Tory politicians, rather than supporters.

The north voted out of anger, but will come out of this worse than ever I fear.

Diane Abbot was on QT saying that this has been in the making for a while, and that this is just a pretext to get rid of Corbyn. Bunch of Blair-loving Tory-lite scum. I wouldn't be surprised if the sabotage turns out to be true. Corbyn is a Bennite, and he was famously anti EU.

Yep, Sturegeon is very much the only one with big credibility and support.