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Due to some recent discussions with a couple of Eldar players (you know who you are), it would seem like there is a need to determine how Eldar can deal with the variety of different armies they may come across, particularly orks and infantry hordes.

First off, Pros and Cons.

Pros - Eldar have some fairly fast, manouverable units. Fleet seems to be a common thing in the army and they have several units which can make additional moves such as Warp Spiders and Bikes. Eldar have a unit for every situation it seems, every unit is specialised in one way or another.
Cons - The specialisation of units can cause problems if the unit you need dies too early, or if they end up in the wrong situation. Low toughness and average armour saves make the force very brittle when shot at or assaulted.

In my opinion (and I have NEVER played with Eldar, just against them), Eldar do fairly well against other small, elite armies e.g. marines, especially when they know they will be facing that particular army. Eldar have a harder time with large hordes and in games when they face a random opponent. A wise man (????) once said that for the Eldar, the movement phase is the most important part of the game. Is this true?

So come on guys, what do you think the Eldar should be doing to win all their games?

And yet eldar place at tournaments all the time.

With the eldar and the need for synergy, I think the real problem with eldar is that you really need to game with them a lot to get a full feel for the army and I don't mean use a unit once and then stop. I mean run the units a lot, try them in different combination against different foes and try out different tactics using them. Don't reject any tactic until you've ran it through the meat grinder more than once. If you don't play against a certain army often, then find a player and challenge them. Rob's got orks and I have guard and 'nids. Both of us are more than willing to game.

Another thing I notice is the concept of highly specialized. Too many people think that the eldar units are highly specialized. Truth is, each unit has a primary and at least one secondary purpose and maybe even a tertiary purpose. Granted they don't do these secondary or tertiary purposes as well as other units but they can still do them. Finding and using this knowledge add a level of redundancy that can greatly help a list.

I think that the movement phase is really important for eldar, and thats primarily why they struggle against horde armies. Againt elite armies they can shoot, back off, shoot, and then scoot around to the opposite corner and start it all again. Against horde armies, there's just nowhere else to go. You cant scoot, because literally the entire board is covered in ork. You end up backed up against a table edge, and then snikrot appears up yer bum. End of Game.

I also think that the specialisation is Eldar's weak spot against hordes, simply because they have no weapons/aspects specialised in taking out hordes. Where the heck is the flamethrower aspect, hmmn? The aspect of Large Blast Template? We have the Howling Banshees, the Striking Scorpions, and the mighty Dark Reapers. Where are the Flaming Pie Plates, hmmn? People may say that Dire Avengers can take out a horde army, but having tried that yesterday, I can confidently say that no, they cant. A full squad of dire avengers bladestormed a unit of 13 kommandos. Thats a small unit by orkish standards. The Avengers killed 6 of em. The remaining 7 butchered all 10 of the Avengers in H2H. And that was a small unit of orks. Again, people may say that Eldar are all about synergy, but that means using two or more of your units to take out one of his, but dont forget that he has twice as many units as you. That math just dont add up.

In the game yesterday a unit of boyz (the most basic infantry they can get) took out 10 harlequins (the most elite H2H unit eldar get). A single warboss took out 10 scorpions. Snikrot and his kommandos took out the last 10 dire avengers. Eldar just fold like paper and cannot muster the long ranged shots required to damage a horde army sufficiently at range. The game was over by turn 3. The Eldar only managed 2 turns before they were clearly all dead.

So that's the challenge, Eldar players: How do you kill sufficient orks from a 2000pt army in 2 turns of shooting to ensure that they wont destroy you in turn 3? Remember, theres nowhere to maneuvre, as they fill the board, theyre all in cover, and their basic infantry will shred you elite CC "masters". Answers on a postcard, please...

I'd like to amend my rant somewhat as it comes across as pretty eldar-hating. I dont hate eldar, I love em. Ive been playing em for over 15 years (is that enough experience for ya, voss?) and will continue to do so for a long time, I'm sure. I think they do very well against marines and other elite armies. This is why they place well in tourneys - lots of people play marines.

My problem does not lie with the Eldar. It lies with the Orks. Theyre too good. There, I said it. Sure, IG can kill em, but what about all the people who dont play IG? you cant say an army isn't overpowered because specific army build A can beat it. Surely ANY race should at least have a fighting chance? Surely? Surely the Ork list isnt that broken...?

EDIT: this is the third time Ive mentioned this on various threads (all relevant, mind you.) Anyone who thinks they can build an Eldar list capable of taking on 2000pts of Badruck's orks is welcome to use my minis to do so. Go on chaps - show me how it's done...

First rule of fighting an ork is don't try to beat them at their game, i.e. hth You will get your head handed to you on the most stinky squig baked platter you ever did see.

That being said, I put together an army 1500 pnts. that may work well against an attacking ork army. It's unorthodox and it would take several games to build up the finesse to use this style of fighting, but I think it stands a good chance of winning. It has everything you were screaming for though.

But after spending the last hour working on it, some memories of the last few times I have given advice have slowly trickled into my mind. I'm sorry to say, I don't feel like going through that again. You'll have to fend for yourself I guess.

As long as you can stop yourself from getting annoyed and from swearing at people for no reason there won't be a need to go through anything again.

I've been keen to hear about this "unorthodox" Eldar list since it was first mentioned by you in the Facebook group.

me_in_japan wrote: My problem does not lie with the Eldar. It lies with the Orks. Theyre too good. There, I said it. Sure, IG can kill em, but what about all the people who dont play IG? you cant say an army isn't overpowered because specific army build A can beat it. Surely ANY race should at least have a fighting chance? Surely? Surely the Ork list isnt that broken...?

EDIT: this is the third time Ive mentioned this on various threads (all relevant, mind you.) Anyone who thinks they can build an Eldar list capable of taking on 2000pts of Badruck's orks is welcome to use my minis to do so. Go on chaps - show me how it's done...

With 2000 points, I can kick their green butts, but as I have said elsewhere, you dont have all the minis I would need....

Spevna wrote: I've been keen to hear about this "unorthodox" Eldar list since it was first mentioned by you in the Facebook group.

I guess you'll have to wait till I get to Eldar on my priority list to find out what I can do with the eldar.

bring it on guyz... WAAAAARGH

I think that the Eldar have ways to win even with out Beaky Boss's ultra Cheesy list... I could tell you but then I would have to kill you...

I'm reading a lot of opinion here but zero hard fact. Come on guys, list em up. 1500-2000pts. unit by unit, point by point. The first thing a newbie eldar player needs to learn is that everything in the army is more expensive than you thought it was. You may think units A, B, C and D will work well, but when you do the math you realise that it aint gonna happen cos you can only fit units A and B into the points allowance.

So, I say to you: Show me the army list. We can discuss it. Then, play a game with the army list. After that, we shall be able to say if it works or not.

Saying

With 2000 points, I can kick their green butts,

or

I could tell you but then I would have to kill you...

or

I guess you'll have to wait till I get to Eldar on my priority list to find out what I can do with the eldar.

tells me that it's still all in your head. At least give both Justin and I enough credit to assume that we also put a fair amount of thought into our list yesterday. We thought it would win too. Thinking a list will win and actually having a winning list are two entirely different things. The only way to remedy this is to do it. Hence the offer to use my minis.

Also, the line,

"it would take several games to build up the finesse to use this style of fighting,"

can be taken one of two ways:

1) Either you lack faith in your own list, so this line gives you an escape clause i.e. "I didnt win because I havent had time to build up the finesse to use this style of fighting, not because my list isnt good."
2) Or, you believe that I couldnt pull off a win with this list, because I don't have enough "finesse" with the Eldar. I.e. Despite 15 years of Eldar experience, you think I'm too dumb to win with them.

Neither of these reflect favourably upon the writer.

and finally,
"some memories of the last few times I have given advice have slowly trickled into my mind. I'm sorry to say, I don't feel like going through that again. "

Yes, the last time you gave advice I disagreed with you.I said

Me on Facebook wrote:ps@mitch - there is such a thing as unconventional eldar, but it largely equates with "eldar who lose a lot". They gave us aspect warriors for a reason...

This was because I felt your advice was tactically unsound. It was not a personal attack. It was my opinion on the advisability of your suggestions as they related to the game of Warhammer 40,000. Were I to simply agree with any and all advice simply because it was offered, I would be guilty of dishonesty and a lack of respect for the advisor. I assume that anyone on these forums understands the game as well as I do, and will appreciate, or even enjoy, in-depth discussions, after which both parties will have a greater understanding of the game. This will, by necessity, involve both agreement and, at times, disagreement.