Close Combat against Vehicle Squadrons

[asch]

When I play Imperial Guards with some vehicle squadrons, it often happens that enemy models try to destroy my squadron vehicles by hitting them hard in close combats. If the vehicles in a squadron have same Armour Values and moved at the same speed in previous turn, it's OK. Target number for rolls to hit is determined by the distance they moved, and roll to penetrate the rear armour.

The trouble is that vehicles in a squadron sometime move at different speed. When this happens to a non-walker squadron, BRB tells nothing about how to decide the target for hit rolls. Moreover, unlike other armies, IG Leman Russ can have vehicles with different rear armour value in it Again BRB tells nothing about how to decide the target for armour-penetration rolls. Vehicle damages are allocated among vehicles in the squadron not before but after armour-penetration rolls.

As far as I know, BRB and official FAQ tell nothing about these situations, at least directly

I usually solve this situation by analogy to a close combat against a non-vehicle unit consisted of models with different WSs and Ts. If the vehicles in the squadron moved at different speed, we uses the shortest distance to match with the table in BRB. (For example, Leman Russ A moved at combat speed and Leman Russ B didn't move, they are hit automatically in close combats in next turn.) If a Leman Russ squadron gets multiple hits and vehicles in it have different rear armours, we use the lowest rear armour value for rolls to penetrate. (For example, if the Leman Russ squadron get two hits and it has Excutioner (rear 11) and ordinary BT (rear 10), the enemy rolls twice to beat rear armour value 10.)

Do you think my answer to these situations is valid? Please give me your solutions and other clues to solve it.

[me_in_japan]

That's a fine question. So far as I can tell, your solution seems good.

On pg 64 of the BRB it says "These (squadrons) follow the rules for normal units, with the following exceptions:" and then it goes on to list the exceptions. As these exceptions dont include different AV or different movements within a squadron, RAW dictates the rules default to those described for combat against a unit.

it also says (on the same page) "When engaged in close combat against a squadron enemy models roll to hit and for armour penetration against the squadron as a whole."

Without any further guidance, you have to assume that "the squadron as a whole" is treated in the same way as a "unit as a whole" would be, so again, you default to combat against a unit.

So, all in all, I'd say your interpretation of the rules is bang on the money.

Primarch, o mighty font of knowledge, what say you? Can you shed some light on this most nebulous of issues?

[Primarch]

First of all, there is a problem with Asch's question.

The trouble is that vehicles in a squadron sometime move at different speed

According to the BRB, on page 64, paragraph 2, all vehicles in a squadron move at the same speed. Even if 2 models dont move, but the 3rd model does, they all count as moving as far as the 3rd model.

So...

You always use the highest speed for determining to hit rolls. (You also use it for determining which guns the squadron can fire).

As for armour values, when units fight in hand to hand you use the majority toughness, or if there is no majority, you use the highest value. Same thing with tanks (the INAT FAQ also supports this, though there is no official ruling). You use the majority AV or the highest if there is a tie. In Asch's example, he states a squadron of 2 with an armour of 10 and an armour of 11 between them. In this case the opponent would be rolling against 11s.

So, to recap the squadron assault rules
To hit - Highest speed
To penetrate - Majority AV or Highest AV if no majority
Allocate hits - The squadron controller can allocate all the hits how they choose
Roll damage - The attacker rolls for damage

Hope that helps.

[asch]

Thank you for your comments, me_in_japan and Primarch!
I appreciate Primarch's clear and precise answer.

First of all, there is a problem with Asch's question.

The trouble is that vehicles in a squadron sometime move at different speed

According to the BRB, on page 64, paragraph 2, all vehicles in a squadron move at the same speed. Even if 2 models dont move, but the 3rd model does, they all count as moving as far as the 3rd model.

So...

You always use the highest speed for determining to hit rolls. (You also use it for determining which guns the squadron can fire).

I've simply looked over the sentence. I must always keep it in my mind, especially when my tank ace leads his squadron.

As for armour values, when units fight in hand to hand you use the majority toughness, or if there is no majority, you use the highest value. Same thing with tanks (the INAT FAQ also supports this, though there is no official ruling). You use the majority AV or the highest if there is a tie. In Asch's example, he states a squadron of 2 with an armour of 10 and an armour of 11 between them. In this case the opponent would be rolling against 11s.

So, to recap the squadron assault rules
To hit - Highest speed
To penetrate - Majority AV or Highest AV if no majority
Allocate hits - The squadron controller can allocate all the hits how they choose
Roll damage - The attacker rolls for damage

Hope that helps.

You always help us a lot.
Again I've missed the rule of majority/highest WS and T. I've continued to use majority/lowest from the release of 4th Ed. We should read a new version of basic rules intensively. Very good lesson to deal with waves of new version of Warmachine, WHFB and Hordes

[me_in_japan]

Thanks for the clear and accurate interpretation of the rules, Prim.

@Asch - let that be a lesson to you. M_i_J doesnt know his 40k rules very well. Specially not vehicle squadrons. Oh me, how embarrasing...