What did you do today.

[job]

@ PV: My problem with the idea is that currently you have "one army" painted to one very coherent and neat looking paint scheme. But, you are playing this one army as "two armies". On top of which you want to rearrange the list across four different rulebooks.

This seems ultimately very unfair to your opponent. I have no problem with the conversions as they seem very clear to be what they are, but it seems unfair that you want your opponent to remember what unit is what on the battlefield when you have not made a fair attempt to distinguish in paint scheme or conversion. How does your opponent tell the "Templar marines" from your "Grey Knights" from your "Space Wolves" from your "Blood Angels"?

[ashmie]

Super sexy paint scheme PV. Reminds me of transformers. Cool.
@ Miguel, totally approving of the old school approach. That is actually a much nicer model than anything GW would churn out. Good call.

[Primarch_Vanguard]

@ PV: My problem with the idea is that currently you have "one army" painted to one very coherent and neat looking paint scheme. But, you are playing this one army as "two armies". On top of which you want to rearrange the list across four different rulebooks.

This seems ultimately very unfair to your opponent. I have no problem with the conversions as they seem very clear to be what they are, but it seems unfair that you want your opponent to remember what unit is what on the battlefield when you have not made a fair attempt to distinguish in paint scheme or conversion. How does your opponent tell the "Templar marines" from your "Grey Knights" from your "Space Wolves" from your "Blood Angels"?

Not sure if you understand that I'm not playing all four armies at the same time. Just one army with allies at a time. And most of the models are exactly what they are or at least have the weapons for what I'm using them as and the opponent will be informed before and during the game. It's not a lot of units either, only two.

As with playing any opponent, whether they be ork or necron, etc, each person can build an army how they like it to be as long as they pay the points. Most people don't play the same army again and again but tweak it after each battle or change it completely. And if they wish to choose different allies, that again is up to them as long as they pay the points. As long as they let you know before the game and try to keep you informed through out, no harm.

Now if it is a campaign or tournament, that is completely different. You have to stick to the list you submitted at the beginning and see it through to the end.

But each game is supposedly a battle on some far off planet between armies from all over. And I am following the rules as per the space marine codex and allies guide lines in the 6th edition. Not tryin to pull one over on anyone. Just dont want to adhere to one army and spend tons of dough each time I want to play a different one. And almost every model has the weapons being used by them. Thats a tad more than most players do. But each to his own.

[Primarch_Vanguard]

[quote="me_in_japan"]@miguel - keeping it old school, i see

@PV - I like the scheme for your army, and it looks pretty coherent to me. One thing I would say is that as you have a lot of different marine army variant models in your army, it would be helpful for folks if you were to post a list somewhere (maybe a new topic in the 40k forums) that detailed which army you actually play in terms of rules, and which models represent which units, maybe split by section. e.g.

Ruleset: Codex Grey Knights
HQ
unit: Grey Knight Chapter master
model: Kaldor Draigo

Elite
unit: Grey Knight Terminators
model: Blood Angel Sanguinary Guard

unit: Grey Knight Assault Dreadnaught
model: Drago (Khador Warjack)


I have made cards for any opponent. That way he or she has all the info right in front of them. Exactly what unit is what.
It's the same as an army having a model with a missile launcher but its a lascannon that your opponent paid for but just didnt want to convert the model for a game. Most opponents might tell you this before the game only and then its up to you to remember.
And if I choose to field say a blood angel/space wolf army. All the models are exactly what they should be. If my opponet doesnt have enough no models or such and wants to use marine models and let me knows, I cool with it. Not going to get petty about it. its just a game.

[Primarch]

There is no reason why a person with a lower disposable income shouldn't be able to field the same army as someone for whom money is no object, so long as you can afford one army. (If you can't afford any models then maybe your free time would be best spent seeking better employment. ). At the same time this one-size-fits-all army is only really available to marine players, so for those people who spent their money buying a xeno army it may appear as if they get the short end of the stick.

Having an army where what you see is what you get isn't a rule (except power weapons, those do have rules based on how they are modelled). It is however a point of good gaming etiquette. Regardless of points paid, models painted or how cool you personally think it is, if your opponent walks away from any game feeling that it was more trouble than it was worth to play you for ANY reason then you may find your available base of opponents shrinking rapidly. Worse still would be if an opponent felt that they lost because of something you had done, deliberately or not, that confused them or misled them. As we have had a tournament end in tears because the guy who should have won it lost due to his opponent misplaying something very subtly, this is something I take a close interest in. It's up to you what models you use, but it is up to your opponents as to whether or not they come back for more.

Oh, and in your example of a missile launcher/lascannon, the polite thing to do is to ask your opponent's permission and if they say no then you accept that answer. After all, they aren't building their list with units they don't have so they should expect the same from you. In my experience, no-one ever says no, but it is always better to ask.

[Primarch_Vanguard]

As in what happened at a tournament, the tournament committee should have stepped in and made a ruling. But if someone beat an opponent with strategy and the opponent knew what was what, then it's fair game. But if someone purposely used different models to trick or lure the opponent into a false move or strategy, then the committee should have made a ruling on it and awarded it to the other guy. Back in the day, the rules were that before each game, you had to give a list of your army to your opponent. They couldn't look at it till after the game. Once it was over, if there were any mistakes on the army list or used items that weren't there, the game was forfeit. Guess what, never happened. Everyone made sure their army list was dead on and there was no tricks and such. But people often used other models for someone thing else. As long as the base size was correct and we knew exactly what it was, not what extra equipment it had though, then it was good to go. It was rocket science to keep track of it. Lol. We did have a rule that it did indeed have to be a model of some kind and not a box. Lol.

And the marine players get shafted sometimes having more than one codex. Since if you want to use something from another army like I do, they have to be allies and some allies can't control objectives and such. We as orks or eldar can use all the do dads from each craft world or ork tribe. That is why the ally rules are there.

And in the end, aren't we all using our imagination here. If someone can't imagine that a bunch of space marine elite troops aren't another elite space marine unit, or a lascannon is a missle launcher, something is wrong. If you try to trick the other opponent and can't beat them using strategy, you aren't a good player and the game should be forfeit. For me it's all about imagination and fun. And like I said, non painted models is a pet peeve of mine, probably different models for something is someone else's peeve. But I'll play a non painted army and bite my tongue because at the end of the day, it's just a game and no one really died.

[ashmie]

And in the end, aren't we all using our imagination here. If someone can't imagine that a bunch of space marine elite troops aren't another elite space marine unit, or a lascannon is a missle launcher, something is wrong. If you try to trick the other opponent and can't beat them using strategy, you aren't a good player and the game should be forfeit. For me it's all about imagination and fun. And like I said, non painted models is a pet peeve of mine, probably different models for something is someone else's peeve. But I'll play a non painted army and bite my tongue because at the end of the day, it's just a game and no one really died.

Respect! I heard that. Amen.

[Primarch]

@PV - With regards to the tournament committee, that would be me, at least at the events I run. As for the situation in question, it only came to light after the prizes had been handed out and a different player had won. I talked it over with the player on the receiving end and he decided not to press the issue, which was pretty decent of him given that he had been screwed out of the prize. And we do ask players to have army lists on hand that can be inspected.

Your comment about marine players being poorly treated because they have too many books is amusing. Each codex is a separate army list and should be treated as such. The answer to the question Why cant I use Army B's equipment in Army A? is Because you play Army A not army B. Of course Eldar can use everything in their own codex, they only have 1. Similarly Grey Knights only have 1 codex so thats all they get. Marines get very preferential treatment through the allies system. Look at Nids. They got a raw deal and it is purely for fluff reasons. It certainly isn't related to the game. Any idea that because you have 1 marine force you should be allowed carte blanche to choose whatever equipment you like is just your own sense of entitlement talking. Anyway, you can get around most of it with allies and that isn't really the issue that has been raised.

You can use any models you like when you play a game. Heck as you say it is all in the imagination so why do you even need models. Is it so hard to imagine that a coffee can is a dreadnought? Proxying A as B isn't an impossible concept to get your head round, most of us have the brain power to understand when you say These Sanguinary Guard are Terminators. It's not about what points you pay or which rules you use. After all, there is nothing stopping you from having the actual models. The point I made was that it is polite to ask your opponent first rather than tell them. Expecting them to have to memorise your army before they play and then asking them to do it again when you play them with the same models but a whole different ruleset is maybe going too far. A good proxy should leave the viewer in no doubt as to what the model is meant to be. Handing your opponent a set of flash cards which are different each time is the opposite. Most of us only get to game once a month, some of us even less. That makes our gaming time a very precious commodity. Everything a player does during that time will have some bearing on the likelihood of them playing the same opponent again. What we do, what all of us do, will always be judged on a scale of how much enjoyment our opponents get from their time spent gaming with us. It is always better to make things as easy as possible for the person across the table from us if we hope to see them there again. This doesn't just apply to proxying, but to every stage of the game and even the time before and after.

[Primarch_Vanguard]

Your comment about marine players being poorly treated because they have too many books is amusing. Each codex is a separate army list and should be treated as such. The answer to the question Why cant I use Army B's equipment in Army A? is Because you play Army A not army B. Of course Eldar can use everything in their own codex, they only have 1. Similarly Grey Knights only have 1 codex so thats all they get. Marines get very preferential treatment through the allies system. Look at Nids. They got a raw deal and it is purely for fluff reasons. It certainly isn't related to the game. Any idea that because you have 1 marine force you should be allowed carte blanche to choose whatever equipment you like is just your own sense of entitlement talking. Anyway, you can get around most of it with allies and that isn't really the issue that has been raised.

I dont remember saying poorly treated. Rather that both ways have there positive sides and negative aspects. I'd personally love to see books come out for different ork tribes or eldar craftworlds. It'd be about time too. And then they'd stop messing with the marine armies you have already built but have to re-tune because the points changed or the army list did as well. I get that you are trying to say that marine armies have more options open to them. That is correct but again, the allies rule in some cases does hamper those units but yes, in some cases it really helps. But that is not my fault. And honestly, if I was going for power playing, i'd play the Necrons. That is one army that I imagine will give me nothing but problems. But I think this horse has been thoroughly kicked to death. Not even Nurgle wants it now. I have made cards for each unit that is something different. The other player will have these in front of him for the whole battle. Should he forget during the battle, that is not my fault. That is being a bad general. All this nit picking just takes away from the fun of it all. If someone wants to use a macross flyer and paints it up, I for one say nice job. Can't wait to shoot it out of the sky. Let's move on.

[job]

I will try to work on painting for an hour before bed time.