Project chesshammer

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Primarch
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Re: Project chesshammer

Post by Primarch » Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:04 pm

me_in_japan wrote: ...but the idea of playing a game with a list someone else wrote leaves me completely cold. List writing is one of the most fun/important parts of the game, no? Is that just me that thinks that?
Jus didn't say you had to let someone else write your list, just that he was writing up lists for his own collection.
The idea is to work out a list with your opponent to create a game where instead of having one army geared to annihilate the other as efficiently as possible, the army lists are A) representative of their play style and B) don't contain units that the other player HAS to take a counter to. E.g. Flyers can be very hard to deal with if you don't take dedicated AA guns or a flyer of your own.
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The Other Dave
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Re: Project chesshammer

Post by The Other Dave » Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:41 pm

me_in_japan wrote:I feel really bad and scummy and wrong even thinking this but...

I really enjoy planning army lists.

Is that such a bad thing? I don't mean power gaming. 3 riptide taudar smells just as foul to me as it does to you, but the idea of playing a game with a list someone else wrote leaves me completely cold. List writing is one of the most fun/important parts of the game, no? Is that just me that thinks that?
BadWrongFun alert! (I kid! :lol:)

Since you phrased it as a question I'll assume it's not metaphorical and try to answer. :D See, I dunno (and the following is, of course, just my opinion and all that - I realize there are a myriad of ways to interface with the amorphous thing that is "the wargaming hobby") - I certainly do spend time making and remaking lists myself, but I've sort of come to think that the most fun/important part of the game is, y'know, playing the game. For me, after a point, list fiddling becomes, like making characters for RPGs you may never play, an exercise in "pre-play," and solo pre-play at that, and ultimately not particularly satisfying. I might draw up some lists as a guide for collecting and painting, but it's not something I really consider "fun".
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ashmie
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Re: Project chesshammer

Post by ashmie » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:37 pm

Great project. The problem with non competitive is that ultimately someone has to win so you may as well make the game as fairly matched as possible. No to gossip and slandering about lists and yes to play for fun and good sport. Good on you Justin.
In agreement on all points. If we are building cheese lists, and I've been thinking this for years now, we may as well just compare lists at the beginning of the game with our un purchased models and say to the stronger list holder, "yep fair enough, you won".
Had a huge sabatical from the hobby because I've only ever painted the minis I had or liked and ended up with a middling list that got trashed every time. If I've ever cheesed up the list it's been misguided and not much fun for anyone.
Yes to chesshammer and shogun style play as Satoru calls it. ;)
Last edited by ashmie on Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jus
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Re: Project chesshammer

Post by jus » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:39 pm

Thank you kindly for all your expressions of support. I like jobs idea of narrative restrictions, that sounds like the spirit of what we are trying to accomplish.

of course the purpose of chess hammer is balance, as a result you may not be able to field all the units you want to field. Pre-making lists by having one person make both lists or having a mutual third-party make it is a sure way for a very balanced game. There are no nasty surprises and neither one of the lists is biased over the other. No as MI J has suggested this may rankle with some people because it removes the choice from the player to build his own lists, but it is nonetheless effective and also makes for a very fun to play (for some people).

I understand that this may not be the most popular choice and so I would like to note that it is only one of the ideas that I am purporting. The other would be as prime said to lay all the cards on the table and plan your lists together before hand instead of arriving to play on the day with who knows what. I imagine this would work by someone putting a list up online and saying "this is what I got" and your opponent making a list and posting up what he has and then maybe crafting a narrative or story of some kind around the game that you're going to play.

The plan is,I'm hoping, to have many set lists created by myself and of course by the community up on this forum that people see, play and return to that are all on a level playing field. If you want to change things up, right up a new list, maybe get it checked out and ok'd and then have fun.

Well, let's try a little exercise: take a look at this here ork list at 750 points
Image

We have warboss Rukgrutz- power klaw, cybork body ( yes that's right no mega armor)
a big mek with flamer and kustom force field for a 5+ cover save to all units within 6 inches
16 choppa boyz
10 shootaboyz with some big shootas
10 Gretchin with a runt herd ( my favorite unit in the list )
3 deffkoptas
1 killakan with big shoots
1 killakan with rockets
1 killakan with grot blasta (heavy 2 S6 ap 4 barrage)

Thats it, not the most broken thing ever. What would you cook up to counter it?

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job
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Re: Project chesshammer

Post by job » Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:45 pm

Nice orks, Jus.

And a very thematic and rounded list.

If I'd write a list off the top of my head, I'd go with something thematic that tried to touch on different parts of the force organization chart and stayed with what I can fully model. Also I'd want something with tactical flexibility but nothing all that stunning. Force the player to make choices.

CSM
Lord (Add a daemon weapon and aura of malevolence) - the daemon weapon is unpredictable and hopefully fun for the player. Maybe the daemon weapon is a counter to the orks and maybe it isn't

Marines (7 marines x 2 squads) - both armed with bolters, bolt pistol and close combat weapons; a marine commander has to rely on his marines and make tough choices with them, attack or shoot?
- 1st squad: flamer, power weapon
- 2nd squad: meltagun, powerfist

Dreadnaught- who leaves home without some walker, especially a crazy one?
missile launcher and powerfist

Spawn (3) - nobody ever sees this unit

Havocs (5)
Two autocannons

A bit of everything. Theme is a marine warband, fighting on foot and centered about a Lord. A few specialist weapons and some chaotic units.
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Konrad
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Re: Project chesshammer

Post by Konrad » Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:49 pm

We used to do big multi-player 40K games with pre-generated lists, special rules, mission objectives etc. waaaay back in the RT days. The key was having a sense of humor and a game master.
For example, one of the first ones we did, The Imperial Guard side had two players. One ran the regular troops and HQ. The other a block of Penal Legionaries. The IG mission was to get the "Beer Machine" (relic). Little did the HQ player know that the Penal Legion's secret mission was to pull a runner and make it of the opposite table edge with as few casualties as possible. The Penal player was very sporting about it. As he was moving his models, before he made a break for it, he would whistle the theme from "The Great Escape".
Though, like MIJ, I like list building in a sense. I like the army to be "mine". I built the little buggers, I want to put them on the table and play with my toys. I just don't play 40K often enough to worry about being "competitive". I don't have time, energy, money or inclination to chase after this season's killer build. And I'll have to say, I've never played anyone who does. Never came up against one of these forum spawned lists of doom. I don't think even at Naghammer. Just not an issue for me. Anyhow you hardly need one to beat my odds and bobs collection of Orks and Guard.
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jus
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Re: Project chesshammer

Post by jus » Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:58 pm

@prim: yes, The making of a number of lists from the viewpoint of a single person is still one of the main goals.
In my case I will write the lists and I will also supply the miniatures, for myself and my opponent.

so far I have 750 point balanced chess hammer lists for orks, imperial guard with space wolves allies , blood Angels, dark eldar with eldar allies and Necrons in the works. Each list is scrutinized, and set in stone so that I wouldn't mind pairing any one with the other for a great game.


This is Chess hammer. You can use one of my armies, or make your own.

@: job: now here's a list that I would have no qualms in facing off with my ork army.

@MIJ: okay, say you want to make your list, fair enough by all means sir, please write a list ...and while you're at it write mine as well!
That's right you right both lists so that if you were to flip a coin you wouldnt mind which side you got. So long it is your idea of balance.
I'd be happy to play game list that you came up with in this way

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Re: Project chesshammer

Post by YellowStreak » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:48 am

If you are going with the idea of say a muli-game mini campaign (say, 3 games), I also like the idea of selecting a larger force (maybe 2000pts), then having to divide up that force per scenario - so the original list is representative of the total forces at you command - perhaps even with the final battle including 'surviving' units from earlier games.
So many games, so little time....
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jus
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Re: Project chesshammer

Post by jus » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:24 am

@:ToD
The Other Dave wrote: time making and remaking lists myself, but I've sort of come to think that the most fun/important part of the game is, y'know, playing the game.
Well said, you and me both

@spev: very cool, once I get a few more battle forces ready, we should have a games day!

@yellow streak: narrative campaigns, fantastic. I think sisters rock, and have always wanted to collect them (as soon as they go plastic, I just might) Also, following you earlier post. I don't really know the sisters army that well, but see if you can match my orks

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The Other Dave
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Re: Project chesshammer

Post by The Other Dave » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:25 am

You know what? I'd actually be willing to play 40K again in this kind of context, and if you know me you know that's saying a lot.
Feel free to call me Dave!
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Miniatures painted in 2024: 146
Miniatures painted in 2025:
32mm infantry: 47
Epic: 12 tonques

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