A murmur of a whisper of a possibility?

[Admiral-Badruck]

yes and they all get cool little rules that make them unique I have to agree with MIJ there are just too many Marine army books out there... do we really need them cant the all just be in one really big book... I know that seem a little bit kill joy for all the power armor fan boys out there but it really does seem to be the best way to get things done at least from a gaming stand point...

[Primarch]

do we really need them cant the all just be in one really big book.

I think the point was, that they DONT get a really big book, they get a standard sized one the same as everyone else. Giving them a really big book would just mean that instead of being mixed in with other books, you'd get all the marine releases at once and that would tie up everything for a year.

[Admiral-Badruck]

do we really need them cant the all just be in one really big book.

I think the point was, that they DONT get a really big book, they get a standard sized one the same as everyone else. Giving them a really big book would just mean that instead of being mixed in with other books, you'd get all the marine releases at once and that would tie up everything for a year.

Really? how so. I do not see what you mean.

[Primarch]

do we really need them cant the all just be in one really big book.

I think the point was, that they DONT get a really big book, they get a standard sized one the same as everyone else. Giving them a really big book would just mean that instead of being mixed in with other books, you'd get all the marine releases at once and that would tie up everything for a year.

Really? how so. I do not see what you mean.

One codex ties up the release schedule for 2 months usually. We get the book and the first wave and then a month or two later we get the second wave of stuff, further down the line we get the third wave of stuff. It takes 1 guy half a year to write one book, thats why they have three main writers. (Other people do help out of course) and then you have 1 or 2 sculptors doing most of the work on the range. If you roll 5 books up into 1 big book, you can cut down on some of the work (All tactical marines can be on the same page), but you're still looking at getting several people working on it for a long time OR burning one guy out on doing it solo. You then get all the model releases, which they WONT do at once for financial reasons (plastic moulds cost a fortune and they need to recoup their costs by making sure models sell, which wont happen if you release it all at once). So you wind up with a year of nothing but marine releases being churned out OR certain marine armies dont get any models until next year or the year after at which point the whole reason for doing one big book becomes pointless as it isnt just the 'codexes' that cause the bother but the huge range of marine models taking up all the release slots.
To do it properly you'd have to scrap any uniqueness from the range and make all marine models the same. No more wolf pelts, gothic crosses or blood drops. Just tactical marines for everyone.

Simply put GW have a limited number of sculptors/writers, a limited amount of money to invest in new moulds and a limited amount of customers to buy their products at any given time. By reducing the number of books you also need to reduce the number of models. Likewise increasing the number of books means increasing the number of models.

[Admiral-Badruck]

I see what you are saying but Dark angels players buy and sprue for all the Dark angel bits are you saying that you do not think this could be done for all of the other major chapters as well. because that is really all they would have to do.. I am sure they are doing things for a lot of reasons but 4% loss over the last year and a loss in the last few years tells me that what they are doing must not be working. Of course I do not have and MBA in game biz so what do I know. there just seems to be too much Power armor love and I am not the only person out there saying it.

[Primarch]

I see what you are saying but Dark angels players buy and sprue for all the Dark angel bits are you saying that you do not think this could be done for all of the other major chapters as well. because that is really all they would have to do.. I am sure they are doing things for a lot of reasons but 4% loss over the last year and a loss in the last few years tells me that what they are doing must not be working. Of course I do not have and MBA in game biz so what do I know. there just seems to be too much Power armor love and I am not the only person out there saying it.

First off, it was a 4% drop in sales and this was attributed to them reorganising stores and the way they are run in the US and Northern Europe (ie the UK) their two biggest markets. They did the same thing in Europe last year and now that area has a large rate of growth right now. The company made LESS profit, but not a loss.
GW ARE making upgrade sprues for all the non-codex chapters. This is the problem rather than the books themselves. In 1 month blood angels got: Sanguinor, Astorath, Seth, the Death Company, Baal and Sanguinary Guard. In another month they got the Battleforce, Dreadnought and Stormraven. Thats 2 months of releases filled by 1 chapter's units. Same again for the Space Wolves, (we're bound to see official wolf models and Thunderwolves at some stage making up wave 2). Templars and Dark Angels will be the same. Space Marines, as the core for the entire power armoured model range got 1 month with all the new metals, scout bikes and drop pod and then had LS Storms, New LSpeeders, 2 new Dreads, a battleforce (the one you can buy now is different to the one from 4th ed) and Legion of the Damned spread across a year or more with the possibility of more to come.

[AndrewGPaul]

Wow MIJ said it best now what would you do with the vanilla marines to make it so we do not need a codex for dogs ,angels and knights. I reckon the IA 9 and 10 method is the best.

The Space Wolves and Blood Angels can be represented with a page of army list modifications and special rules apiece. Dark Angels aren't distinct enough, rules-wise to need an army list of their own.

Space Wolves: Tactical squad members all get a close combat weapon, and can have two special weapons instead of a heavy weapon. Devatsator squads can only have five men. Wolf Guard are simply Terminator, Assault Terminator, Vanguard or Sternguard squads, but you can detach models to act as squad leaders, as per the existing Wolf Guard rules. Give the army as a whole Counter-charge or whatever it's called. Include psyber-ravens and wolves as character upgrades.

Blood Angels: allow Command Squads to take jump packs. Sanguiniary Guard are a Vanguard squad with Relic Blades. Add Death Company, Death Company dreadnoughts and a version of the Black Rage and you're sorted.

Librarian and "Furioso" dreadnoughts, Baal-pattern predators, Storm Ravens, Thunderfire cannons and the like should be freely available (albeit possibly in different quantities) to any army.

Chaos ... I'd keep Codex: Daemons, because daemon armies are cool. Plus, you need something for the Grey Knights to fight. In fact, in an ideal world, Grey Knights and Daemons would be in one, Imperial Armour-style book and be specialists. Grey Knights becoming a "fights all comers" army just so you can take them in a tournament and fight Orks is wrong, IMO.

The Chaos Legions book would be in a similar style to the Space Marines book.

Plague Marines should be a unit upgrade, not a squad type. Same goes for Thousand Sons troopers. Not every World Eater is a Berserker (and not every Berserker is a World Eater. An Emperors Children Legionary can glory in the sensation of slaughter just as much as a World Eater assault trooper). I'd make Berserkers Fast Attack or Elite choices, and Troops choices in a Khornate army list. Similarly, Noise Marines would be Heavy Support or Elites (depending on how you want the sonic weaponry to be represented) and Troops in a Slaaneshi army.

Which reminds me; I'd split the Chaos army lists by god, not by Legion. After all, most of the Legions have broken up into war bands to a greater or lesser extent. A Black Legion war band following Abaddon wouldn't look the same as one which has thrown its lot in with Slaanesh, after all.

The other four Legions, well, I'm not so knowledgeable about their little habits. They were all invented to justify an Index Astartes article, anyway (I remember when the Night Lords and Word Bearers were Khornate Legions). Dark Chaplains in a Word Bearers army, infiltrating Elites in a Night Lords army, extra support weapons and the like in an Iron Warriors army and, well, if you've got Alpha Legion in an open battle, you're doing it wrong.

I'd also chuck in a page or two of rules on how to create Chaos Renegade armies using Codex: Imperial Guard.

I'd also do Codex: Orks and Codex: Eldar in the same style as Codex: Space Marines. Probably Codex: Tau as well. Codex: Tyranids could have different army list options for Hive Fleets Behemoth, Kraken and Leviathan, and that just leaves Necrons. Something along the lines of allowing different options for Lords to tweak the Force Org allowances, perhaps.

[Admiral-Badruck]

That is what I am talking about... I am really keen to see how FB develops as a game, the new Orcs and Goblins Army book looks like a good sign of what is to come. it has got me chopping at the bit and building my models in a frenzy just so I can buy some more Daemons and also so I can start and Orc and Orc Army...

If 40k is headed in that direction I think we are in for some very fun gaming...

[Mike the Pike]

Chaos ... I'd keep Codex: Daemons, because daemon armies are cool. Plus, you need something for the Grey Knights to fight. In fact, in an ideal world, Grey Knights and Daemons would be in one, Imperial Armour-style book and be specialists. Grey Knights becoming a "fights all comers" army just so you can take them in a tournament and fight Orks is wrong, IMO....

...Which reminds me; I'd split the Chaos army lists by god, not by Legion. After all, most of the Legions have broken up into war bands to a greater or lesser extent. A Black Legion war band following Abaddon wouldn't look the same as one which has thrown its lot in with Slaanesh, after all....

Wow! A loooonnngggg post by a Scotsman that I actually read to the end

The first quoted idea is very interesting and would be very fluffy. There really isn't any reason the GKs would ever fight the Tau, for example. Or, for that matter, any army without a Psyker. However, in the interests of sales, I don't think GW would ever go for it. Still, nice idea though.

The second idea is one that I think would work better. God specific books would be a better way to go. Not all Berzerkers are ex-WEs, just like not all Slaanesh worshipers are Noise Marines etc etc. They could even do them like the old 40K/FB crossover books, 'Slaves to Darkness' and the other one. Bitter enemies, Slaanesh and Khorne were in one book, Nurgle and Tzeentch were in the other.

Whatever happens, I just hope they give Chaos it's flavour back. Alessio(?) admitted as much recently, that he deliberately wrote the current codex the way he did with an eye to bringing the rest of the codices in line. However, they then came out with all the current variations on Boltheads that have far more variation etc etc.

Here are some my ideas to fix C:CSM

Give us back SPIKEY BITZ! And also, master crafted weapons, kai guns and the like. The new Deldar book has so much variation. So many different builds available. Why not Chaos?

We wouldn't mind having our customizable veterans, and Chaos Lords/daemons back too.

Chaos need more Psychic powers. Why do rigidly controlled Imperial Psykers have access to more powers than Chaos who are unfettered by any sort of limits?

Why can Imperial Land Raiders carry 12+ troops but CSM ones can only carry 10? Then there is the whole 'Power of the Marine spirit' thing.

Why do 'Marked' squads lose their bonus if their icon is removed. If you are a frothing looney, bloated ball of pus, empty husk or pervert, why would you stop being one just because someone took your magic stick away?

Let us have our Daemons back! At the very least, the troops anyway.

Get rid of the current crop of Characters. While they are quite fluffy, no one actually uses them much. We don't need uber characters like the Vanilla Marines do, just someone interesting. Perhaps ones that change up the FOC chart a bit. For example, a Corn Flake that lets Corn units all count as scoring or allows more of certain choices. More than 3 types would be cool too of character might be nice. How about Warsmiths/Dark Mechs?

[frans]

The new codexes are all similare on a few points, the amount of "good" builds are increased (BA = Razorback spam, Jumppack lists, stormraven lists, dreadnoughts lists). Adding different styles of list is sometimes done with the use of special characters changing required amount and FOC.

I do not like the ide with one book for each god. They are more similare than different, it takes to long to update all the current SM-lists for each new edition.