Monday the 16th - The End of the World?

[Mike the Pike]

Just for the record...

In general I really like GW products because they produce two of the best Sci-fi and Fantasy Battle (note, I didn't mention skirmish games) games on the market. Their minis are ace and definitely amongst the best out there. The universe/background for both games is great. I am not a fan of their recent price rises but such is life.

@Ennui & Spev: Just out of curiosity, apart from the money thing, why do you guys hate GW so much? Were you beaten up regularly by a Red shirt as a kid?

[ennui]

I actually had almost no contact with GW at all before my first time at the Joshin event a couple years ago. Before then, I had this image in my head of 40k as prepubescent fantasy with ridiculous and ugly power suits, green-skinned punks that were really ugly, and weird elves that were creepy without being cool. I now have this image in my head that includes all of the above, but now I know that the universe tries too hard to be as grimdark as possible without any sense of how ridiculous the whole thing is. I guess the orcs are the only thing in 40k that has anything close to a sense of humor, but they're really ugly and don't really do it for me.
I guess English SF in general isn't really my thing.

That being said, I'm not going to belittle anyone for enjoying it, and I'm not claiming any other game to be superior. (ahem besides Strange Aeons ahem)

[Seb]

Just for the record...

In general I really like GW products because they produce two of the best Sci-fi and Fantasy Battle (note, I didn't mention skirmish games) games on the market. Their minis are ace and definitely amongst the best out there. The universe/background for both games is great. I am not a fan of their recent price rises but such is life.

Agree with everything.

[Spevna]

I hate them for the direction they took the company and the hobby in. Before Kirby took over, it was very much a different entity.

In the pre Kirby era, GW was very much a company run by gamers, for gamers. I an remember issues of WD that had missions for Space Hulk, lists for new WHFB armies, scenarios for WHFRP, and alternate rules for WH40K vehicle combat. You know, actual hobby content rather than a glorified catalogue.

I remember vouchers printed in the back that you could take long to grand openings/re openings. Stuff like;

"Buy 2 blisters, get the third one free"
"Buy Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus, and get Space Hulk free"

As I kid, I felt that GW stuff was expensive. I don't think it has ever been a "cheap" hobby but then again, not many hobbies are. I didn't mine paying thought as I felt like I was part of a community (for want of a better way of expressing the feeling).

You got the impression that the company actually put the gamers wishes/needs ahead of profit and that they were happy to be doing something they loved and being able to make a living from it.

After the management buyout in 1991 I have seen no special offers. I have seen the hobby content of WD dry up to almost nothing. I have seen support for all the lesser games vanish. Of course, the quality of the product has gone up in some areas (though I still think the Kev Adams Orks , Marc Copplestone Imperial Guard,and Jes. G original Eldar, and Bob Olley squats are the best) but that rise in quality does not justify the continuously rising costs.

So, in a nutshell, GW took the hobby I loved , something I identify with my childhood, and turned it into something I hate and no longer recognise.

[Mike the Pike]

How old are you Spev.?

[Primarch]

Everything Spev said

I agree with Spevna on a lot of the points he makes. WD used to be a decent magazine. Now there is very little in the way of actual content. Some helpful painting tips, the occasional article which contains actual rules, some interesting conversion ideas, but usually its just one big, glossy ad. I remember when there were actual GAMES in that magazine. Necromunda started out as Confrontation, which was all published as a series of articles in WD. There were some cool card based games, including one where you had to lead the Emperor and several squads of marines through Horus's battlebarge.

At the same time, I think that 40k and Fantasy have improved immensely over the years. (Sorry Spev). I find the current rule sets to be very well written for fast, streamlined play. Yes, there are errors that need fixing and a lot of that comes from having a lot of armies which all interact in different ways, but I'm happy that I dont need to be searching through 3 books, 7 magazines and some random scraps of paper to cross reference 2 random numbers on a table. Likewise, I always found some of the randomness from earlier versions off putting. I like how the new books are laid out and I think the new models are far superior to the old ones. The orginals have their charms, but I like the new stuff rather than the old.

Ideally, I'd rather have the old mindset of By Gamers, For Gamers coupled with the current rules and models, but that will never happen. I doubt we'll ever see much from the Specialist game range anymore. Gone are the days of Trolls in the Pantry. I remember when Space Marine used to be a core product (if you ask me, all that Epic Armageddon nonsense is what did it in ), but theres no more chance of that again. So I figure I'll stick with what I like and try out something new and enjoy my gaming without worrying about which company I'm buying from these days.

[Spevna]

I do agree with what you say about the more streamlined rules. But at the same time, the original, cumbersome as they were, weren't designed to be played with the same number of minis you would whack down on the table now.

Anyway, that is getting off topic and into the dodgy ground of nostalgia.

[Seb]

Jus and I already stated but this question goes to everyone else who plays 40k/fantasy:

Who here can say that one day, if the model is cool enough, could think themselves buying a finecast product? Or is everyone just going to stubbornly refuse to buy finecast just because GW is a sh*tty company to them now?

[Spevna]

Jus and I already stated but this question goes to everyone else who plays 40k/fantasy:

Who here can say that one day, if the model is cool enough, could think themselves buying a finecast product? Or is everyone just going to stubbornly refuse to buy finecast just because GW is a sh*tty company to them now?

I haven't bought a single thing from GW in about 2 years.
I haven't bought any GW products from online or indy retailers in about 2 years.

If I can't get a GW product used/second hand on Ebay or through trade, I will have to live without it.
I will never buy anything from GW again while the business continues along it's current path.

[job]

hate them for the direction they took the company and the hobby in. Before Kirby took over, it was very much a different entity.

In the pre Kirby era, GW was very much a company run by gamers, for gamers. I an remember issues of WD that had missions for Space Hulk, lists for new WHFB armies, scenarios for WHFRP, and alternate rules for WH40K vehicle combat. You know, actual hobby content rather than a glorified catalogue.

I remember vouchers printed in the back that you could take long to grand openings/re openings. Stuff like;

"Buy 2 blisters, get the third one free"
"Buy Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus, and get Space Hulk free"

As I kid, I felt that GW stuff was expensive. I don't think it has ever been a "cheap" hobby but then again, not many hobbies are. I didn't mine paying thought as I felt like I was part of a community (for want of a better way of expressing the feeling).

You got the impression that the company actually put the gamers wishes/needs ahead of profit and that they were happy to be doing something they loved and being able to make a living from it.

After the management buyout in 1991 I have seen no special offers. I have seen the hobby content of WD dry up to almost nothing. I have seen support for all the lesser games vanish. Of course, the quality of the product has gone up in some areas (though I still think the Kev Adams Orks , Marc Copplestone Imperial Guard,and Jes. G original Eldar, and Bob Olley squats are the best) but that rise in quality does not justify the continuously rising costs.

So, in a nutshell, GW took the hobby I loved , something I identify with my childhood, and turned it into something I hate and no longer recognise.

I think you make a really good point Spevna. Certainly the hobbying side of the game seems to be increasingly less supported by GW, and it seems universally felt that Citadel has become more distant from the gaming community and feeling more "corporate". I've been playing since 3rd Ed was fresh, and while the pages of the book are more glossy, the art of a higher detail and the models in greater poses, I can't say that GW really supports the hobby as an entirety. Sure, the Golden Daemons and the painting competitions exist, but they seem to be driven by dedicated fans rather then supported by GW efforts.

But be wary, two years is a drop in the bucket to how long GW can wait for you. Temptation may be only one cool model, one touch of the die or one weak moment before a codex away. Good luck.