To comp or not to comp, that is the question.

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Mike the Pike
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Re: To comp or not to comp, that is the question.

Post by Mike the Pike » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:52 pm

Oi! Stop interrupting me in mid-rant Prim. :D

It's not only Wargaming that uses 'comp' scores either. Golf uses a well established handicap system to even things out between beginners/veterans, age and gender differences. The essence of sports gambling is essentially calculating 'comp' scores for horses, sports teams etc.

I guess, what I am trying to say, and what Prim has kinda already said, is that comp levels the playing field to a certain extent. A player with a Hard build from one of the newer codicies will have to be be on top of his/her game. Th player with the older list that might be comparatively over-priced, lacking any sort of killer combo, playing with a nice themed army etc can enjoy the game more knowing that if he/she plays well they may just have a chance at winning rather than losing before a dice is rolled.
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Re: To comp or not to comp, that is the question.

Post by Colonel Voss » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:17 am

The added bonus of comp scores are:

1) Diversity: you aren't seeing the same lists again and again and again or the same armies constantly on the field (demons anyone?)
2) Ingenuity: It keeps you on your toes and makes you think more about the choices you are making rather than default win button.
3) Leveling: The weaker and older codexes are more level.

As for the argument that 40k doesn't have any dominant list, I will call that. The IG leafblower list is down right nasty. Stateside it is just rocking against other lists like no ones business.

I guess everyone can tell, I sort of enjoy the comp score concept, however there is one weakness to this, it is subjective in some ways.
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Admiral-Badruck
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Re: To comp or not to comp, that is the question.

Post by Admiral-Badruck » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:21 pm

I see you your points I just disagree with them... Ikeda had a weak list for the Space wolves... now the Nids had a power list that was played well... however it seams to me that he only be the necron player because she rolled incredibly poorly on armor and Will Be back..

Ok here is the thing... You are saying take a crap army and get points for taking crap... what do you tell a guy that likes Nids or IG and played them when they were crap was everyones kicking boy... now suddenly they are a good list and you say sorry but we are going to take away all your good units and make you play the ones that suck... seems fair and fun for all ... NOT...
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Mike the Pike
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Re: To comp or not to comp, that is the question.

Post by Mike the Pike » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:42 pm

Ummm, do you even understand the purpose of comp scores? :)

No one has ever suggested taking away anyone's units or forcing everyone to take weak lists. It's just that certain lists across both major GW game systems have a much smaller chance of winning against certain other lists. And if you won't even admit that then you then there's no point even talking about this topic.

It's not always a case of having a weak/out of date army book/codex either. Some players just like to play fluffy, interesting armies. At least one of Admiral Badruck's many personalities has commented publicly that he prefers to play with just such lists. ;)

And as I found out personally at the Beppu tourney, where I was handicapped by the equivalent of a tabling compared to the player with the best comp score but still won, such a comp system doesn't/shouldn't matter if you play well enough.

Hmmmm, that makes me wonder if the Admiral's reluctance to accept comp scores is due to the fact that he (they) won't be able to hide behind his (their) Orks/Blood Angels/Space Wolves codex and/or his (their) Mega-Dredd-Plague-Hulks will have to man up and play well. :twisted:
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Re: To comp or not to comp, that is the question.

Post by Primarch » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:44 pm

Admiral-Badruck wrote:Ok here is the thing... You are saying take a crap army and get points for taking crap... what do you tell a guy that likes Nids or IG and played them when they were crap was everyones kicking boy... now suddenly they are a good list and you say sorry but we are going to take away all your good units and make you play the ones that suck... seems fair and fun for all ... NOT...
Thats the opposite of what we are saying. No-one is taking away any units and you have it all back to front.
If you take a list that will dominate the battles then fair enough, its your call. If you are taking units which are weaker because you like them or that is all you have, then the comp score is a way to give you a fighting chance.

Lets say we have a race. You have a battered Nissan Cube, it is all you can afford. I have a Ferrari Testarossa which has engine tuning and all sorts of cool extras. Short of me crashing, you have no way to win. Is this a race you would have fun taking part in?

You can bring whatever you like to any tournament, if you bring daemons with 2 Bloodthirsters and whatever other high powered stuff you want then thats fine. The guy who brings a decent, balanced, fun list will get a bonus to his score to offset your crazy powergaming.

As I said Winning with a zero for comp is playing on easy mode.
Winning with a comp score of 40 is godlike.

Which player should get more respect, the guy who tables his opponents because he brought the best army in the game or the guy who tables his opponents and brought the worst army in the game?
Winning a tournament should be based on how good you are as a player, not how good your army list is.
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Re: To comp or not to comp, that is the question.

Post by Primarch » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:48 pm

I cant find the post now, but didnt the Admiral say he would bring an all grot list to O-bomb if he had the models?

Tell you what Ruckster, for this tourney you can use orks as stand in grots. They'll use grot stats, rules and equipment, but the models dont have to be WYSIWYG. If you table both your opponents (cos you're missing game 1) I will give you all the prizes. If you opponents table you, they will get a prize.

Because comp has no place in 40k right?
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Re: To comp or not to comp, that is the question.

Post by me_in_japan » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:52 pm

Warning! Opinion ahead. Proceed with caution

[opinion]
I think the whole comp issue is one thats going to divide folk irreconcilably. It comes down to how you view a tournament. If you see it as an extension of the hobby, i.e. a chance to meet other gamers, play various armies and generally have a good time where everyone is, basically, equal, then you're gonna like comp. However, if you see tournaments as a chance to prove your tactical superiority, and assume that everyone else is there to do the same then you'll likely feel that comp is daft.

Taken from the latter perspective, a tournament is an opportunity to measures one's generalship against other gamers in the area. Bearing this in mind, it seems logical that players who attend a tourney are there to prove they are the best i.e. to win games of 40k/WHFB. Part of being good at these games lies in choosing one's army, both in terms of army-build, and codex-choice. A great deal of games are won or lost before a dice is even rolled. "Levelling the playing field" is all well and good in friendly competition, but is a tournament a friendly competition? If it is, then when does one get the chance to prove oneself the best? Mike mentioned golf handicaps as a system similar to comp, but correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't use handicaps at the Master's Tournaments, do they? Wimbledon? The World Cup? Likewise, taking an example close to my heart, in a painting competition they don't say "You've got a really nice Winsor and Newton paint brush. He doesnt, so to make it fair, you're not allowed to use the colours red, blue or white."

The tournament scene is not representative of the hobby as a whole, and should be viewed as a small subsection where the ability to win a game of 40k/WHFB is pretty much the be-all and end-all of the hobby. This doesn't mean you should be a dick about it, but it does mean that if someone turns up with a "cheesy" army then it's no-one's fault but your own that you didnt bring one too. Yes, this means that if you take this theory to its logical conclusion some army builds are pretty much going to disappear from the tourney scene, but a tournament is not there to be winnable by anyone. Much like evolution, it's there to be won by the most able. Yes, that means that certain army builds are, once everyone gets wise to em, going to become more and more common, but only until someone works out how to beat them. I can't believe that either 40k or WHFB is so broken that there is one single army-build that is literally invincible. Worst case scenario, given enough iterations of this survival-of-the-fittest situation, everyone ends up bringing the exact same army, and then we'd really see who the best general was...

While I strongly believe that the fundamental point of the hobby is to have fun, meet folks and push around bits of pretty plastic on a table as a precursor to a beer-filled evening, I also feel that pushing oneself to succeed in any field (including wargaming) can be very rewarding. I think it's important to differentiate the hobby as a whole, and the tournament scene in particular. The two are by no means the same thing.

I also believe that certain armies are stronger than others - I've said it before jokingly, but I genuinely think that Tau are terrible. Rob may argue that Tau can take on any opponent, but in a game where one player gets 2000pts of Tau and the other gets 2000pts of Blood Angels, and the loser and anyone who bets on him gets disembowelled, I know who I'd be betting on.

It's not that Tau can never win. The same goes for SoB, Grey Knights, or any other "low-tier" army you care to mention. They can all fluke a victory, either by lucky dice, or by catching a well-matched opponent. However, taken in the great scheme of things, there is a ranking of "winnability" in the 40k codexes. Ultimately, if you want to play in tournaments, the first decision you have to make which will affect your chances of winning is "which army will I play?"

Magic The Gathering provides a comparison. It is possible to play this game for fun. The vast majority of players do. However, the vast majority of Magic players would not ever think of entering an official Magic tournament. Why not? Cos they'd get their bums handed to them, that's why. They don't have the cards they need to win. Ain't got 4 copies of whatever the latest, greatest doom-combo card is? Then stay at home, kiddo, yah might git hurt. In fact, Magic is even less fair than 40k/WHFB, as at least in the GW games you have absolute control over what minis you buy. in Magic, your card collection is either hella random or hella expensive. (A thousand dollars for a Black Lotus on ebay, anyone?)

I think the point I'm rather circuitiously trying to get at is: A tournament is not The Hobby in microcosm. It is a distinct, separate entity and should have it's own rules and standards. If you want a friendly, all comers-equal gaming session, then organise one, like Stu did in Golden Week. He said it very clearly: This Is Not A Tournament. If you want to organise/join a tournament, then do so, but make it clear to the gamers that they should bring their big guns, not their pocket knives.

[/opinion]

NOTE: This is my opinion. It does not need to be your opinion. I would very much enjoy it if you would care to challenge my opinion with your own. If you can find logical faults in my opinion, or indeed, give your own opinion in sufficiently convincing terms for me to change my opinion, then that would make me a very happy man indeed. It's all about mutual respect. i did not type this indubitably verbose post simply to start an argument. Had I intended to do that, I could have just made a comment regarding Aspect Warriors and their necessity in an Eldar army. Thank you for reading :D
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Re: To comp or not to comp, that is the question.

Post by Admiral-Badruck » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:03 pm

choosing the list is part of the skill.. you are rewarding a player for taking units that are not very good.. Brazil is playing North Korea in the World cup is brazil going to get a better score for taking 40 year old players just to offset the fact the North Korea is sure to get crushed because they are not on the level... how would the north Koreans feel about a win against Brazil over 40 team. I sure would not feel like I had done much if I took out a Kroot heavy army with a marine army that has a flamers in every unit... and whirlwinds in the back... gee that was fun... if you are not taking a top class army to a tournament you are not trying to win... Thats what Nagoya Hammer was all about take a fun army most people did and it was fun but the World Wide War was all about Power gaming... it had a point or so for comp but it was not a very big part of the event... or anyones total score too much the guy that won was a kid with nid Zilla player..
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Re: To comp or not to comp, that is the question.

Post by me_in_japan » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:06 pm

Badruck wrote:choosing the list is part of the skill.....

......if you are not taking a top class army to a tournament you are not trying to win...
i see the Admiral understands what I'm trying to say.
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Re: To comp or not to comp, that is the question.

Post by Primarch » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:13 pm

me_in_japan wrote:Warning! Opinion ahead. Proceed with caution
Mike mentioned golf handicaps as a system similar to comp, but correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't use handicaps at the Master's Tournaments, do they? Wimbledon? The World Cup? Likewise, taking an example close to my heart, in a painting competition they don't say "You've got a really nice Winsor and Newton paint brush. He doesnt, so to make it fair, you're not allowed to use the colours red, blue or white."
think that Tau are terrible. Rob may argue that Tau can take on any opponent, but in a game where one player gets 2000pts of Tau and the other gets 2000pts of Blood Angels, and the loser and anyone who bets on him gets disembowelled, I know who I'd be betting on.
When did you last enter the Masters? Oh wait, they aren't open competitions are they?
As I said, winning with a weak list > winning with a strong list. If you can consistently beat a super strong Blood Angels list with your all Kroot tau list then you truly are a great player.
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