Eldar - Tactics and Ideas

[Admiral-Badruck]

What is killing you man?

Tell me what you think in the Ork list is taking you out... and I will tell you what you could do to deal with it but I am not going to write you a list that crushes my army.. and remember to use small words and short sentences... My feeble Ork brain can't take much more than a few lines of text before it starts skimming over the really important points...

[Colonel Voss]

1) Either you lack faith in your own list, so this line gives you an escape clause i.e. "I didnt win because I havent had time to build up the finesse to use this style of fighting, not because my list isnt good."
2) Or, you believe that I couldnt pull off a win with this list, because I don't have enough "finesse" with the Eldar. I.e. Despite 15 years of Eldar experience, you think I'm too dumb to win with them.

or

3) the playing style is different from what you or myself are use to when playing and would take some getting use to.

Do I have faith in my list? Yes. If I failed, I would simply try harder and not make excuses. Do I think you are too dumb? No. I do think you are very rigid when it comes to thinking about tactics and adapting to a very different style would, I believe, cause some stumbling for you. Which leads to 3). I have theoretical and learned knowledge. I scour the web for winning ideas that are outside of the box. I probe the rules and lists for uses of units that others haven't considered. I take Patton at his word 'If everyone is thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking.' However, I only have a very limited field experience with playing the army and base knowledge of what I've gone against in previous games. It will take time to get use to the army for me. For you, see my earlier comment about rigid thinking on tactics. A radical change in tactics like what I am proposing would take some getting use to.

This was because I felt your advice was tactically unsound. It was not a personal attack. It was my opinion on the advisability of your suggestions as they related to the game of Warhammer 40,000. Were I to simply agree with any and all advice simply because it was offered, I would be guilty of dishonesty and a lack of respect for the advisor. I assume that anyone on these forums understands the game as well as I do, and will appreciate, or even enjoy, in-depth discussions, after which both parties will have a greater understanding of the game. This will, by necessity, involve both agreement and, at times, disagreement.

Actually, you've always rejected what I have said out of hand sighting point cost vs. gain from using them. Then later down the road, (usage of tanks, guardians) you found out that what I said did have merit. Now I fully admit that I don't always say the right thing (my comment on the d-cannon was in error due to misremembering the rules) and I usually except criticism of my tactics and advice very well. Stu and Rob have both been very critical of my use of my Minotaurs and we have talked strategies, both good and bad. My IG cohorts and I have lots of disagreements over tactical use of our toys. But the difference is, they give a more detailed explanation on my mistake and how to correct it whereas you have only told me this is wrong because of X,Y, and Z. No rebuttal, no explanation or insight into the way you think so that we can have a dialog over our disagreements.

ps@mitch - there is such a thing as unconventional eldar, but it largely equates with "eldar who lose a lot". They gave us aspect warriors for a reason...

Strange, some of the eldar tournament winners run far more unorthodox lists (makes me look like a puritanical) than I propose, and it looks like they're doing just fine. In fact, the guardian usage stuff I told you, I got from them plus a lot more that I never bothered to pass on.

Maybe it is just me, but I enjoy learning unorthodox tactics and strategies. I scour the forums and blogs looking for new ideas and I put a lot of thought into the use of units. And I want winning strategies; I'd never propose crap on purpose and I wouldn't propose something without thinking a lot about it.

Who knows, maybe my strategy for beating the orks is wrong. But it's a list I would play and I wouldn't give up at one loss. I'd work the list and I'd run it again and again until I knew what was wrong then I would tweak it. And I'd send it against the guard and the marines and 'nids and build a solid foundation of knowledge about the units and how to use them before I started to tinker with the list (I kept in mind other armies as I build it up). I'd also keep bringing units back and seeing what they could do in new combos and I would continue to think outside of the box until I got it.

Take it for what you believe it is worth.

[Spevna]

Until people put up lists this whole thread is going nowhere.

[Primarch]

Until people put up lists this whole thread is going nowhere.

I previously put up a list elsewhere, but was told I was wrong by everyone...
However in all fairness my basic idea of Warwalkers everywhere you can fit them backed up by Guardian Jetbikes and Vipers still seems good to me.

To be honest, paying 100 points for a transport (wave serpent) and then having it sat moping around in the back field waiting to be charged is a total waste. I admit, I didnt watch much of the Eldar/Ork game at the weekend, but from what I did see the Eldar barely left their deployment zone. There is a tendency to do the whole 'Deer in the headlights' thing against orks, I know I have done it before. If you're buying fast transports, use them. Zip across the other side of the board and overwhelm a flank. If you're just sitting still, even Eldar can get something that shoots more for less points.

What is killing you man?
Tell me what you think in the Ork list is taking you out...

I think the answer is 'Boyz.'

Again, people may say that Eldar are all about synergy, but that means using two or more of your units to take out one of his, but dont forget that he has twice as many units as you. That math just dont add up.

Actually you seemed to have roughly the same number of units on the board. Theirs were just bigger. Most units in most armies cannot shoot an equal size unit to death on 1 turn of shooting. (some heavy weapons teams or sternguard can if you're lucky) If you want to win a shooting match you HAVE to dedicate several units to killing 1 of his at a time.

[Spevna]

@Prim - Good on you for putting up a list.

@Voss - Still waiting for yours.

[Colonel Voss]

farseer w/ runes of winessing, spirit stone, doom fortune guide
20 guardians w/ scatter laser and a warlock with destructor (would have preferred a missile launcher)
2x 10 dire avengers w/ exarches carrying two catapults and defend
10 storm guardians with 2 flamers and a warlock with destructor mounted in a wave serpent with twin linked missile launcers
3 guardian jet bikes
3 war walkers with scatter lasers & missile launchers
2 fire prisms with holo-fields

total of 1497

the whole concept of this army is to make the orks come to you (something most ork players are all to happy to do). Use the pie plate templates of the fire prisms to soften up a unit and hopefully you can finish it off with one or two dire avenger units. Wash and rinse using the war walkers and the other dire avenger squad. Storm guardians and transports move around to flame a unit (three templates, 2 at 4, 1 at 6).They may only get one chance or if you use them to sweep around and flame their heave weapons units, you might be able to keep them around for a while.

Guardians come on a bit later and shoot up the scene, or hunker down and race out when the orks get close enough to shoot. Guide and doom would work great on them at this time.

Jet bikes are end of game contesters and used to pick off the sole survivor in a KP game and should be left in reserve.

If the orks bring trucks or dreadnoughts, the missile launchers can work wonders at popping them, leaving the dire avengers, guardians and storm guardians to clean up.

[Primarch]

farseer w/ runes of winessing, spirit stone, doom fortune guide
20 guardians w/ scatter laser and a warlock with destructor (would have preferred a missile launcher)
2x 10 dire avengers w/ exarches carrying two catapults and defend
10 storm guardians with 2 flamers and a warlock with destructor mounted in a wave serpent with twin linked missile launcers
3 guardian jet bikes
3 war walkers with scatter lasers & missile launchers
2 fire prisms with holo-fields

total of 1497

Seems like a reasonable enough list for shooting. If the orks do make it into combat with you, (and they will) you have no units which will stand up to them for long. If you get the first turn you're ok, but if you go second then popping trukks wont make any difference as they will already be in range to assault. Your storm guardians will be able to take most small ork units but will suffer if a full mob gets stuck in.

[Colonel Voss]

Unless I have misread the rules (and I couldn't find anything on the FAQ), the trick would be getting both dire avenger squads into CC against the same unit, maybe with the guardians or storm guardians in support if you think they could cause more good than harm. The key would be defender which removes one attack from the unit that is directing their attacks against the dire avengers. This lowers their total attack output and if you have done right, the dire avengers should be able to mop up the orks on their own.

And you are right, if you get the second turn, it'll be harder, but with the right reserve combination, I think it is doable.

[Konrad]

Talking about the Badrukk/Me Jus/MeinJapan mix up specifically. I saw 4 things that got you, 2 of which were dice related and are just, "Hey, thats the way it goes." nothin you could do about it.
1. My Kommandos made a 7+ Ld test after getting Bladestormed. If they had run, it would have been a totally different game on that flank.
I forget the exact positioning, could you have charged them after you BStormed them?
2. We blew the cannon off the Fire Prism. That saved us a scoring unit or two.
3. You only had two scoring units and you sent of of them off into a bad, bad place with lots of choppaz and stabby fings, (the aforementioned Kommandos) and left the thier transport in front of 3 Kannons. I think having only 2 troops hurt you more than anything.
4. Your guys did not really work together. The Scorps were not in position to finish off what the Avengers blasted. The Bikes did not straf the trukks and then let the War Walkers gun down the passengers.
5. Sorry, I meant 5 things. You messed with the best and paid the price. Waaaargh!
6. And this is a "Hey, that's the way it goes" thing. The guys are right when they say Eldar do not match up well against Orks. I think that if you can play them to a draw, you'd be doing well. Any way you cut it your superior intellect is no match for our primitive weaponry. Don't worry, next Codex, Scatter lasers will be A12, Avengers will have Bladestorm for free, Wraithlords will have 6 wounds, Eldrad will be able to cast all the Farseer powers in one turn......

[Primarch]

Unless I have misread the rules (and I couldn't find anything on the FAQ), the trick would be getting both dire avenger squads into CC against the same unit, maybe with the guardians or storm guardians in support if you think they could cause more good than harm. The key would be defender which removes one attack from the unit that is directing their attacks against the dire avengers. This lowers their total attack output and if you have done right, the dire avengers should be able to mop up the orks on their own.

If you are trying to reduce the orks attacks by 2 (ie use defend twice) it doesnt work that way. Its not models in assault with that unit, it is models attacking that unit. For example, your avenger unit A attacks the right side of an ork mob and avenger unit B the left side. All the orks on the right side attacking unit A lose 1 attack. All the orks on the left side attacking unit B lose an attack. The only way to take two attacks off would be if the ork model tried to split its attacks between both squads.

For the avengers to shoot and then assault, they would need to be within 12 inches of the ork mob at at start of their turn. This probably means they took a round of shooting the turn before from the ork's guns. You probably wont have full squads left.