Eldar - Tactics and Ideas

[Colonel Voss]

No just trying to guarantee that they do lose one attack. This is why I warned against sending the guardians in. If the orks decide to attack them, then they get full attacks which is not good.

The second point you make is conditional. Any dire avenger attack would likely occur on turn 3 or later after they've been softened up. And just remember that I can always move back before I move forward to attack

[me_in_japan]

Well, everyone seems to have an opinion on how-to-win-with-eldar. Coolio - the thread seems to be working
(It's also near-miraculously still on-topic, and we're on page 3 already! unprecedented!)

First of all, as the player who was on the receiving end of the orks, thank you all for your input. I know it was Prim who started the thread, but it's of definite benefit to me (and of course, any other eldar players out there.)

I've got various things to respond to. This post looks real long, but mostly it's just quotes. I'll break it down by person:

First up, Konrad:

I forget the exact positioning, could you have charged them after you BStormed them?

Sadly, no - we had just disembarked them from a transport. Fair question, though.

You only had two scoring units and you sent of of them off into a bad, bad place with lots of choppaz and stabby fings,

Actually, Guardian jetbikes are scoring units too, so we had 4 scoring units. The reason the Avengers went after the Kommandos was that there was no-one else to do it. We also kinda hoped that they would've done more damage. The other Avengers spent the whole game objective squatting, until Kommado unit 2 Snikrotted them up the behind.

The Scorps were not in position to finish off what the Avengers blasted.

Sadly, again, they weren't too far away, but as they started the game inside their tank they couldnt assault out of it cos it wouldve had to move to get them close enough to the Kommandos. Eldar cant assault if their vehicle moved at all. Also, the only door is in the back, so unless the enemy has infiltrated behind them, they almost always have to move.

The Bikes did not straf the trukks

actually, they did. It was completely ineffective and over in seconds. I can understand how you might have missed it...

Now Voss:

I'll adress only general tactical issues at this point. I won't pick apart the list you posted. In fact, I will attempt to field the list next time I play. (would it be ok if i proxied a falcon as the second fire prism, folks?)

the trick would be getting both dire avenger squads into CC against the same unit

How? They're faster than you. They will charge you, not the other way around. Then they will kill the avengers in one round.

The key would be defender which removes one attack from the unit that is directing their attacks against the dire avengers.

Defender is nice, but it doesnt kill anyone. Dire avengers really struggle to kill orks, especially if the orks are charging. The avengers can hit first, but with only 11 attacks at S3, they will likely kill 1, maybe 2 orks. The remaining orks (say, 10 or 11 of them in a small unit) will have 33 attacks at S4, plus a power klaw. They will win the combat by 4 or 5 kills.

Use the pie plate templates of the fire prisms to soften up a unit and hopefully you can finish it off with one or two dire avenger units.

Your Dire avengers are out of range at the start of the game. The Boyz are in Trukks. There is also a battlewagon containing a warboss, Grotsnik, and 6 meganobz to worry about.

Use the pie plate templates of the fire prisms to soften up a unit and hopefully you can finish it off with one or two dire avenger units. Wash and rinse using the war walkers and the other dire avenger squad.

So, all going according to plan, you've now killed one unit of ork boyz and their trukk. Now what?

Storm guardians and transports move around to flame a unit (three templates, 2 at 4, 1 at 6)

Move where? There is nowhere on the table outside your own deployment zone where you wont get charged by an ork unit next turn. Your guys are all still out of range for shooting templat weapons (its turn 1). Destructor is S5, btw.

Guardians come on a bit later and shoot up the scene

Sorry, Guardians what? They have range 12" and BS3. Also, if they come on later in your deployment zone, the only orks there are going to be locked in combat with your guys already.

Jet bikes are end of game contesters and used to pick off the sole survivor in a KP game and should be left in reserve.

Absolutely.

Any dire avenger attack would likely occur on turn 3 or later

By turn 3 the game was over. We never even got to play our turn 3.


Prim:

from what I did see the Eldar barely left their deployment zone.

I know, it looked girly, but seriously, there was nowhere we could have moved them where we wouldnt have been charged next turn. We had nothing that could stand up to an ork charge. Also, even if there was a wee space somewhere in a corner, what would the point have been of being there? the objectives were in our deployment zone.

paying 100 points for a transport (wave serpent) and then having it sat moping around in the back field waiting to be charged is a total waste.

To be fair, I think we had too many tanks. I'm used to playing armies that can actually shoot you, so given the fragility of Eldar units I kinda assume they need a shell to hide in. Against orks, it would probably be less worrisome to have some footsloggers (altho thered be the whole mobility issue, too. Hmmn.)

Zip across the other side of the board and overwhelm a flank

The other side of the board was full of orks. The units that anhihilated us only accounted for about half their army. The other half was still in their deployment zone. We were basically taken out by:
2 units of 12 kommandos
Snikrot
A warboss
3 deff kopters (lucky shot on the fire prism)
1 unit of 12 boyz.
And something that shot the turret offa a wave serpent. Dunno what it was.

Everything else was just table-space filler, so far as the orks were concerned.


back to Voss, re: his opinion of me.

I do think you are very rigid when it comes to thinking about tactics

In what way? Do I always play the same list? Do I always do the same things with it? Can I have some examples? This kind of thing could be really helpful, tactically, as it's very hard to see one's own bad habits from the inside, so to speak.

Then later down the road, (usage of tanks, guardians) you found out that what I said did have merit.

Tanks, yes, although you must have said that a looooong time ago, as Ive been using Eldar tanks for about 10 years. Guardians, no. Theyre rubbish. Every time. I have tried, y'know. More than once or twice.

they give a more detailed explanation on my mistake and how to correct it whereas you have only told me this is wrong because of X,Y, and Z.

Surely "because of X, Y and Z" is a detailed explanation?

some of the eldar tournament winners run far more unorthodox lists

I have some trouble with this word "unorthodox". What does it mean, exactly? What is an "orthodox" list? How does one know which is which? Examples would really help, here.

I have theoretical and learned knowledge.

So do I.

I scour the web for winning ideas that are outside of the box.

While I can't say I scour the web, I certainly read the web a lot. I can't say if I've ever found any ideas that are outside of the box, because I have no idea what that means with regards to the game of 40k. Can you explain, please? Again, examples would help.

I scour the forums and blogs looking for new ideas and I put a lot of thought into the use of units. And I want winning strategies

So do I. (well, i read, not scour.)

Finally, Badruck:

What is killing you man?

As Prim says, Boyz are a huge problem. they can kill my best H2H unit in close combat, and they can soak up the fire of my best guns. It's not just boyz, though. Theyre in Trukks. Trukks are not so hard to kill, but they take up a turn of shooting. Things like bikers and deffkopters are a major threat as they can be in your face soooo fast. Snikrot and his kommandos have the same problem. They dont have power weapons, but they dont need them with 4 attacks each that wound on 3+s. A sensible ork player (i.e. you) will deploy his army in enough cover that casualties in turn 1 will be minimal. By the time turn 2 rolls around, you're ready to charge your first wave. Your second wave is waiting behind them. What can eldar do about this?






Waaaaaaaaaaaahwailywailywaily

Oh, it's tough to be an Eldar player up against the greenies.

[Primarch]

In all fairness,

Dave, you come across as being a tad negative about the whole thing. Even though you do occasionally try adding new units to the mix, I feel your 15 years of experience is holding you back somewhat. This isnt 4th ed, or 3rd ed or 2nd ed. Orks (and most of the other armies....sorry dark eldar) have changed a lot. Apart from the one game where you brought no aspect warriors, your list is generally fairly predictable.

When Mitch mentions unorthodox unit selection and you say "what makes it unorthodox?" my initial reaction is "because you wouldnt field it." You have your way of viewing your army and thats fine. Harlies may be the best H2H unit you can field against marines, but not against orks. To be honest, you need to start to think beyond what you have learned from your many years of playing as Eldar if you want to beat armies you consider unbeatable.

This isn't meant as criticism, just friendly advice. Adapt, Evolve, Try something new.

[Admiral-Badruck]

thanks fro keeping it simple man... give me a few days I hope I can find something that will work well against the orks... I think there is a way but you have made very good points... and there is the fact that Konrad brings up I have had a lot of games with orks and I have played against Eldar many times most of the time we "the green tied" can bring the pain... I thing there are a few things that you could have done but under most accounts we were going to beat you before any of the dice were rolled... Part of it is you tend to freek out about certain units... hell who doesn't...
The are of war says "Know your enemy as you know yourself"
I think you did well to take the Battlewagon down... but this unit had a very big weak point it had to charge after the closest unit... I am sure you could have made that work for you..
You also overlooked the special rules for Snikrot.... You seemed very shocked to when he showed up on the long table edge... This means you were caught off guard... Can't let me or anyone for that matter do that to you most times it will be a game turner...

You know the Math Hammer you need to make better use of it... Only commit a unit it to something if you know it will do what you want it to do..
You did a good job of this with the Hquinz they took out what they were meant to take out... and there was not a thing we could do about it..
You pulled a "Green" ( GoalKeeper for England)on Komandoz in the building you should have stacked the odds more in your favor jet bikes could have shot them up as well as your tank instead you tried to take down the trucks and the Battlewagon.. IMHO you should have tried to redirect them that does not always work but it is the best way to deal with units that are hard to kill ... I think that Blade Storm(drizzle) is a waste most of the time... Unless you know you are going to get rid of the unit in question then you should not use this thinking it will be a game saver or a unit cracker... there was a chance that you could cut that Komado Unit Down in one turn of shooting...but instead of pelting them with shot from range you got right in their face and failed to break or kill them... or even marginalize their assault capability...
BTW this never happens when you play marines... you always hit them with just enough to do them in... no more no less.... the same balance needs to be there when you play Orks... finding it is the hard part...

I am going to try and find the crack in the Orks with eldar... but I do not think I will be sharing it with you I will tell when I have found it so you will know that there is a way.. until then it looks like Voss and Prime have heaps of advice for you too bad they do not play Eldar enough to really know what they are talking about... sorry guys nothing personal but MIJ is the man I see playing Eldar and making the Changes in his list to his credit he plays a very different Eldar list every time... I think learning to make the list you like work for you is a bit better tactic but I am not sure if that works with Eldar... works ok with Marines.. Orks work best when you mix them up... at least that has worked for me... TBT I have no idea what will work until I have played Eldar a bit more but I am confident in the power of the Panzy... WAAAARGH

[Spevna]

When Mitch mentions unorthodox unit selection and you say "what makes it unorthodox?" my initial reaction is "because you wouldnt field it."

Got to say I disagree with this bit.

When I see Voss type that, the first thing I think of is "what the hell does that mean?" It could mean about a million different things. Unorthodox = not what people usually take. So, we know what it isn't. What is it?


And ditto the Admiral in regards to advice.

[Primarch]

This is what I am working on so far....
2000 points
3x Warwalkers with 2x scatter lasers each.
3x Warwalkers with 2x scatter lasers each.
3x Warwalkers with 2x scatter lasers each.
6x Guardian Jetbikes with 2 x shuriken cannons, Warlock with destructor and singing spear
6x Guardian Jetbikes with 2 x shuriken cannons, Warlock with destructor
10x Dire Avengers with Exarch with extra shuriken catapult, defend and bladestorm
10x Dire Avengers with Exarch with extra shuriken catapult, defend and bladestorm
Avatar
10x Warpspiders with Exarch with extra spinner
10x Scorpions with Exarch with Chainsabres and Shadowstrike
Farseer with Spiritstones, Doom and Mindwar

6 units capable of putting out multiple strength 6 shots (3 of them at long range) should shred most ork vehicles. The three warwalker squadrons are capable of taking down a 30 ork mob a turn. With Doom the two avenger squads can manage the same. Warpspiders and bikes provide support to mop units up and the Avatar and Scorpions counter assault anything that gets close.

[Primarch]

When Mitch mentions unorthodox unit selection and you say "what makes it unorthodox?" my initial reaction is "because you wouldnt field it."

Got to say I disagree with this bit.

When I see Voss type that, the first thing I think of is "what the hell does that mean?" It could mean about a million different things. Unorthodox = not what people usually take. So, we know what it isn't. What is it?


And ditto the Admiral in regards to advice.

Point I was getting at is that Dave is a very orthodox eldar player. I keep seeing the same units over and over. Suicide dragons, mobs of harlies etc.

[Spevna]

and the point I was getting at is that using the term unorthodox is pointless without examples.

[Primarch]

and the point I was getting at is that using the term unorthodox is pointless without examples.

I believe mitch posted his army list.

[Spevna]

and I believe he talked about unorthodox tourney winning lists with no examples given.