Question regarding future NH events and armylists

[Colonel Voss]

I've already told Prim that I am willing to take overall leadership for a fan dex. I've got a pretty good muse who likes to come out and play and I'm not over the top on rules or strangeness. What will come of this I don't know, but if there are people willing to help with the testing I am ready to go.

[me_in_japan]

Just to clarify - I think using fan dexes made on forums such as tempus fugitives could, just possibly, be doable. I am very much against making a dex ourselves, however. (at least as far as Naghammer is concerned. What you do in your own time in your own games of 40k is no business of mine, of course.)

[Primarch]

What you do in your own time in your own games of 40k is no business of mine, of course.)

Can't say fairer than that.
If people want space on the forum to develop their ideas, then they can have it, but everyone should bear the above message in mind.

[Colonel Voss]

Just to clarify - I think using fan dexes made on forums such as tempus fugitives could, just possibly, be doable. I am very much against making a dex ourselves, however. (at least as far as Naghammer is concerned. What you do in your own time in your own games of 40k is no business of mine, of course.)

So basically if I made a very cool and balanced codex it would be disallowed based on the ground that I am not from another group?

[Primarch]

Just to clarify - I think using fan dexes made on forums such as tempus fugitives could, just possibly, be doable. I am very much against making a dex ourselves, however. (at least as far as Naghammer is concerned. What you do in your own time in your own games of 40k is no business of mine, of course.)

So basically if I made a very cool and balanced codex it would be disallowed based on the ground that I am not from another group?

Now, now, lets not get into it for no good reason. This is all theoretical at the moment.

Whether or not it would be allowed isn't M_i_J's call to make. (no offence to M_i_J). He could certainly ask not to play against it at an event (an understandable request), and I can see his point that something coming from outside our own group is less biased in favour of the person using it than one written by the person planning to use it. (though he doesn't say as much).

The whole using fan-dexes or not thing hasn't been decided yet, and probably wont be for some time. Personally, in my own games I am cool with using non-official stuff if it is cool and interesting. I dont see the point in worrying about whether the rules were written by Colonel Voss or Matt Ward to be honest. However, I am not about to force my opinions on the people who come to my events, hence this thread and discussion.

For those of you in-favour of using fan-dexes and who want to take a shot at writing your own, you have the freedom to do so and don't need my permission or M_i_J's or anyone else's. Whether or not you can use them at NagoyaHammer depends very much on how good a job you do at convincing folks that it is not just cool, but also has been thoroughly playtested, discussed, redrafted and is fair and balanced. I am not about to say 'NO' just because of the author or the source. However, I wont say 'YES' just because you feel that you worked hard to produce something for your own personal use.

How about.... if you make your own fan-dex and having read it, M_i_J thinks that it is fair, balanced and acceptable then I will allow it at NH no questions asked. That seems like a standard worth aiming for.

What say you oh Moderator of all things Swoosh?


#edit# - And if you can provide a copy of the rules in Japanese that would be even better.

[Admiral-Badruck]

@voss That's is in a nut shell...

People will believe in Matt Ward... But not in anyone but him and the folks at GW. I don't get it. But hey people want to win at army men so bad they could not possibly allow someone to make up some rules pass them around and play a game for fun.

I was all about writing my on dex but even try to post an idea and some will tell you you are wrong. As long as you don't mind people telling you you are wrong.

Case in point blood talen dreadnought will kill Orks like nothing else. Not one peep out of me about it being broken. Dreads that can move 12 and charge. (same codex)

GKs: Guys with 2 + armour saves and two wounds as well as scoring monstrous creatures. Nothing daft there.

Necrons: Little bugs that eat armour and then punch holes in it. Not word from me about it being overpowered. What you can make them for free using groups of monstrous creatures. Never even a peep of how that could be over powered.

I made a unit for my tau codex and wow it was so overpowered it could take a st4 hit and negate the effects of grenades. Super over powered... Guess I should have just given it lashwhips for free that would have more in line with things that already have rules.

In short a well written fan dex with some fun special rules and some unique abilities would be called over powered. And there is nothing you could do or say to make it fair in the eyes of they guys that care about wining and do not want to have to think there way out of a problem.

People forget the game is just an excuse to build cool models and have them fight each other. I hate the fact that people want to win so badly they can't stand that there might be something out there they can't kill with a few well placed bolter shots.

The other extreme is when someone wants to make the lore of the books match the game. Orks do a good job of this as do dark Eldar. IMHOrkO... Normal marines should all be as good as Palladians from the GK book to fit the lore and every GK palladian should be as hard as a Marine Captin But if they were people would not have to buy more that 8 models to play a 1500 point game. This would never work in GWs business model. So what we get is a game lossely based on the lore and made to sell models. And this is fine as long as the points values are set at the right levels. A fan dex can do this but it won't work unless people open their minds and just play for fun not to win.

[Primarch]

I made a unit for my tau codex and wow it was so overpowered it could take a st4 hit and negate the effects of grenades. Super over powered... Guess I should have just given it lashwhips for free that would have more in line with things that already have rules. .

I think it was the fact that they had relentless rail guns, fought as well as marines, had power weapons that made them monstrous creatures and gave them a cheaper basic cost as a similar unit type that was nowhere near as good that caused people to say "er....no." The thread you started up for your Karmans went to 7 pages with you saying you were going to keep playtesting them. True, there was a fair amount of sarcasm on my part (sorry), but you were getting somewhere with them. Heck even M_i_J was helping out. That alone is one for the record books.

[Admiral-Badruck]

Actually it fought as well as an ork but to be fair I did keep changing them around. Until I thought they would be fair. But at the end of the day playing the monkey men as battle suits saved a lot of time and energy.

[me_in_japan]

How about.... if you make your own fan-dex and having read it, M_i_J thinks that it is fair, balanced and acceptable then I will allow it at NH no questions asked. That seems like a standard worth aiming for.

What say you oh Moderator of all things Swoosh?

I say go ahead, chief. Bear in mind I am a fussy bugger when it comes to made-up rules. That doesn't mean I will just moan about things you make up - I am actually very interested in fan-dexes, however I have a clear idea of what makes a good set of rules for a mini and what doesn't. See Prim's thread about making your own dexes for details (he's pretty much described my way of thinking.)

People will believe in Matt Ward... But not in anyone but him and the folks at GW. I don't get it.

It's not that people have faith in Matt Ward. Personally I think some of his ideas are bloody stupid, and if it were up to me I'd have sent him back to the drawing board long ago. The problem is, it aint up to me. the rules are already published, and that means we HAVE to accept them (assuming we want to play warhammer 40k in a form recognisable to other players of warhammer 40k.) Whether or not I let my opponent use a made up fan dex is up to me however, and thus I reserve the right to call bloody stupid on made-up rules as I see fit.

[Admiral-Badruck]

We do not have to accept them we chooses to accept them we can always say I am not playing against X army or X codex. I think playing against codex exidites would be fun. I wish someone would write it.