New FAQs are up!

[Konrad]

Also, nobs and so-forth are no longer all characters, which again makes it harder to spread out wounds. I was planning to make a tweak-ed out nob squad with all sorts of fancy shiny bits. I'll still do it, but it won't be as great as I hoped.

Augh! Noooo! There goes my double whopper with extra cheeze biker nob mobs I was planning on fielding. (joke, I was merely musing, it would take me 2 years to build them.) Well, I suppose I'll just get to work on more guns. dakkadakkadakka
Better take a look at the FAQs.

[The Other Dave]

...and mercilessly crushed two new players.

This is all I need to know about this dude. Some people.

[Danguinius]

Indeed, these players (in my group) were never really fluffy players, but my point is that the allies table is THE MOST exploitable (new) rule for powergamers. Since it is such an easily exploitable rule, it will be exploited by min-maxing players. This rule has (and will) take cheeze-mongering to whole new levels that weren`t possible before this rule existed. Thus, I think it is a bad rule. And I don`t think it enhances the game at all (we had Apocalypse for fun, fluffy team ups). It just seems like a business decision hastily tacked on to sell more models with no regard to how it would affect the rules or actual game play.

I believe the saying is, "Don`t hate the player. Hate the game." This is true more than ever now in 40K. I can`t change those players in my wargaming group. I`ve tried to explain the demerits of powergaming and it just doesn`t get through to them. I can`t change them. I need the rules of the game to keep them in line. For example, I`ve never had any issues playing WarMachine or Hordes with them. Yes, I wish I could move up to Nagoya and play with people who don`t cheeze-out every army list. But then again, why should where I live determine how fun my wargaming experience is? I can play WarmaHordes in Hiroshima, Nagoya or Chicago and get pretty much the same experience. But the same cannot be said of 40K, especially now. If I want to play 40K in my group, I need to bring two armies (lots of bags...75 minutes on the train) to Hiroshima in case I get paired up with "Imperial Marines" or "Dark & Light Eldar" or "Tau Wolves" so I don`t get wiped off the table.

Sorry, that was rather long-winded, but I just wanted to be clear that I have nothing against people who want to make fluffy tag-team armies (for Apocalypse or special scenario battles). But that isn`t what the allies rule is providing for 40K. The game will not get "fluffier". It will just get cheezier. This is probably true in any game where "anything goes".

Danguinius

[me_in_japan]

Have to disagree, Dan-san. In this case you can absolutely hate the player, not the game. (sharpen yo aim!) From what I can gather from your description of him in your post, he was a cheese-mongering power gamer before 6th ed, and he remains a cheese-mongering power gamer after the release of 6th. The game has clearly changed, the player clearly hasn't.

If GW go out of their way to reign in power gamers, then sure, yeah, allies tables would be out. But what about the rest of us? The ones who want to play for fun? It's not like GW can say "the following rules are for non-power gaming nob-ends only. For a description of a power-gaming nob-end please see page 17." As game developers they can either write a flexible, open-universe system which is open to abuse, or they can write a tightly constricted ruleset which is far harder to exploit, but at the same time less flexible in terms of what you can do in-game. They have decided (and have clearly said on a number of occasions) that they are on the side of the fun, non-power gaming fraternity, and that their games are aimed at such. With regards to this particular piece of decision making, they have my complete respect and agreement.

[Primarch]

My advice, take those two new guys to one side and say "That guy who beat you, thats how you SHOULDN'T play the game." Show them how to play properly without stomping them and then, hopefully, you will have two non-cheesey players in your group.

But yeah, you have my deepest sympathies for having a group like that.

[jus]

....waaaaait a minute. JUmp infantry can't walk 6 in the movement phase? Good heavens really? Im at work right now, and can't check the book but, I though they could if they decide to use the jump packs in the assault phase. Why can't they use their legs to walk over some bricks?

[ashmie]

Without going too off topic but remaining on the subject of cheese. I recently did a 1500 point list for Robs event and it's probably the cheesiest list I've built to date. There are two dreadnoughts, usually only field one. One of the dreads is in a drop pod.
Also taking Sicarius with a command squad in a Razorback.
The reason I built it a little cheesy this time was simple. In the past I've got tired of either drawing or getting tabled and it was really a case if I cant beat the cheese, join it. I have always played for fun in the past with 40k and my nice lists have stopped me from going forward. So I would say as far as 40k goes I will build my lists to give me more chance of winning.
It's tricky though, perhaps my list isn't too bad but it's definitely more thought about than previous ones.
You guys can let me know when we play.

[me_in_japan]

@ash - I reckon there's a world of difference between playing to win and cheesing out. Personally I don't think 2 dreads, even with 1 in a drop pod, is cheesing. 3 dreads, all in drop pods, backed up by tac squads in razorbacks, with some storm ravens. That's cheese.

Tbh, I don't think it's something you need to worry about. It takes a certain type of mentality to be a cheesmonger, and you just don't have it in you. That's a good thing, by the way

[Primarch]

I'm with M_i_J on this. Putting some thought into your list isn't a bad thing. I wouldn't sweat it.

[Mike the Pike]

@Danguinius: As usual, I have only the following to say to you....
"Waah waah waah waah waah waah waah waah waah waah!"

Seriously, MiJ and Prim pretty much summed it up for me. It's a very complicated game and that because of it's complexity is open to abuse by those that want to abuse it. Generally, we here in the Midlands don't go for uber-cheese, most of us* play at about Mature Cheddar level when faced with an opponent of a similar level. Most of us also take it down to Japanese ultra-bland supermarket brand level when playing noobs etc.

*The Madmiral plays unpasteurized Stilton left out in the Summer heat for a week level