Have mercy on a butterfingered noob...

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DarkElves>All
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Have mercy on a butterfingered noob...

Post by DarkElves>All » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:39 pm

Gentleman,

I have travelled a great e-distance seeking the wisdom of the Naghammer.

As my converting experience is limited to lopping an arm off an 80s miniature once upon a time in the 90s, I need some advice on a rather more ambitious project:

Creating the Avatar of Khaine (End Times: Khaine edition)

Image

Image

So, the plan is to chop up an old Eldar Avatar (Cheers to AGP for the one on the left!), and re-set it as a mounted character.

Then add Tyrion's sword, add a stylised shield, green stuff an upper torso, add a new Wood Elf head and hair ...et voila, my version of the Sword of Khaine-wielding Avatar!

As I have next to no experience in anything more difficult than kitbashing, I wanted to ask your advice on the main modelling:

Image

The red lines are where I'm planning to cut, before reconstructing with green stuff and glue. Do you recommend that I pin all the new joints I'll be creating?

Also, regarding the Sword arm swap:

Image

I would like to swap Tyrion's sword (centre) for the plastic lance on the right.

I would then like to put Tyrion's sword onto the Avatar arm on the left.

My question: what is the best cut to make? Across the wrist (red), or across the hands (blue).

I'd like the future Tyrion model (not necessarily this Avatar project) to be the gaming centrepiece, so I'd like the Tyrion arm + lance arm to be the most stable/aesthetic.

Thanks in advance for your attention.

All modelling advice including any recommended greenstuff and/or pinning tutorials appreciated :)
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jehan-reznor
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Re: Have mercy on a butterfingered noob...

Post by jehan-reznor » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:21 am

Get this one it is easier to work on.

Those metal ones are OOP and worth a pretty penny to the collector

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/ ... 5n1w4d.jpg

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me_in_japan
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Re: Have mercy on a butterfingered noob...

Post by me_in_japan » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:14 am

You'd need a fricking big horse to seat the current avatar on (although a 54mm scale one could work, actually, but I digress...)

A side note to non fantasy readers: The Avatar of Khaine to which DE>all refers is not an Eldar avatar. It's Prince Tyrion of the High Elves. Long story, but basically he's picked up the Sword of Khaine which has possessed him and turned him into an Avatar of blood crazy psycho god. He still rides a horse, though, and is baaaasically still an elf. Malekith of the Dark Elves is the Avatar of Asuryan, btw, and Orion of the woodsies is the Avatar of Kurnous while his missus is the Avatar of Isha, I believe. There's all different flavours of the buggers riding around in the old world.

Anyway, as you have 2 old school avatars I guess you can stand to chop one up. But, looking at the size comparison I still think you'll run into issues with scale. Regardless of how you cut it, the head of that avatar are going to look massive on poor old malhandir. If you're happy enough with that, then yeah, I reckon your suggested cuts will work. Before you start this project make damn sure you have a decent razorsaw (the GW one is fine) as you'll be cutting a lot of metal. As fr pinning, hell yes. Pin the living crap out of that mutha. You'll need a pin vice and some wire. Stiff-but-bendable with fingers is good, as you'll need to rebuild his pose via the wire connecting his knees and upper and lower legs. My advice would be to cut where you've suggested and drill right through his knee joints. Use a single piece of wire through the knee to connect the upper and lower legs, so you can jig about with poses on the horse. He's got massive long legs, though, so you again run the risk of out -scaling the horse.

Te more I think about it, the more I think you might be better served by sculpting avatar-ish looking armor onto a plastic mounted model (one not already in armour), so the added plates don't look daft.

I'll think on it some more and get back to you. It's an ambitious project, and not one that's likely to be without headaches, but if you stick at it it'll look awesome :)

Ps - sword arm: blue cuts, single wire drilled right through the middle of the hand.
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DarkElves>All
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Re: Have mercy on a butterfingered noob...

Post by DarkElves>All » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:43 pm

Thanks for the rapid reply gents :)

@ jehan

Image

As David has said, this Avatar is "Tyrion possessed".

I bought the Tyrion miniature a few years ago to use as my Dark Elf general, so I thought this new character would be a good opportunity to get Malhandir our of the cupboard and assembled.

I'm going for a different spin than the official fluff -- more of an Avatar (hence the old Avatar basis) than a Tyrion.

@ m_i_j
But, looking at the size comparison I still think you'll run into issues with scale. Regardless of how you cut it, the head of that avatar are going to look massive on poor old malhandir.
I thought about the scale when considering this. The head is coming off as it is too static and dated; he will be getting a new regular sized noggin. Avatar head will be recycled into scenery or something...

With a new head, the scale is close to heroic (10 heads), although the arms and feet are a bit big. I've used Malekith's body as a model on Malhandir on the image above, and he fits OK and is the same size as the Avatar. If the feet end up being too big I'll chop them off.

...and this isnt a permanent edition on Malhandir, just an option -- this new Avatar will also fit on Dragons and Manticores where any scale issues should be overcome.
My advice would be to cut where you've suggested and drill right through his knee joints. Use a single piece of wire through the knee to connect the upper and lower legs, so you can jig about with poses on the horse.
Good call!
Te more I think about it, the more I think you might be better served by sculpting avatar-ish looking armor onto a plastic mounted model (one not already in armour), so the added plates don't look daft.
This is a really nice idea actually. I could see a Mandrake torso working well for this. But on the other hand I want to breathe some new life into a classic model, so I'll continue with this project. Definitely a good concept I might play with later though :)
Ps - sword arm: blue cuts, single wire drilled right through the middle of the hand.
You sure? The more I think about it, the easier the wrist cut looks; it wont damage the sword and should create a nice amount of metal for pin insertion. And the Tyrion hand is a better scale than the Avatar hand. Decisions!
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me_in_japan
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Re: Have mercy on a butterfingered noob...

Post by me_in_japan » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:54 pm

I find the through-the-hand pin works better for swords etc because the sword is basically a long lever once it's pinned onto the wrist, and even a slight bump at the tip of the sword (which is where you'll be bumping it) translates to a lot of force at the wrist joint. If you pin through the hand there's a larger amount of pin to absorb the force. Meh, I've tried both ways in the past and have generally found the through-the-hand method to be sturdier. You make a fair point about the avatar's hand being a tad over large, though.
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DarkElves>All
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Re: Have mercy on a butterfingered noob...

Post by DarkElves>All » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:17 pm

Makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for the advice!
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DarkElves>All
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Re: Have mercy on a butterfingered noob...

Post by DarkElves>All » Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:34 pm

This is the first proper cutting, pinning and greenstuffing work I've ever done and I have to say it is immensely enjoyable :D

Drilling all the holes I thought would be a nightmare, but the white metal yields easily and it is an enjoyably focused task with the right tunes in the background.

My lack of fine control has seen some difficulties; I've found it difficult to drill perfectly through the hands, I've managed to break my second finest drill bit off inside the miniature, and my greenstuff work is rather undetailed.

I have all the required tools, and actually thought more sculpting could be done when the epoxy was harder rather than softer :| But now I've cut it back with a knife and I'm going to redo the top layers with a better blue/yellow softness ratio.

Still ...one of the most satisfying recreational experiences of my life 8-)

Will put some WIP shots up later.
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Re: Have mercy on a butterfingered noob...

Post by Konrad » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:48 pm

Green-stuff is addictive isn't it? I can't paint anything these days without chopping it up and fiddling with it first.
Those fine, fine drills are fragile. All of mine smaller than a .05 I broke......
And yes, if it doesn't work. Trim it off and do it again. I sculpted a lovely little ear on a figure this weekend. Took a look at it Monday and saw it was too far back on the head. Ah, well. One more time.
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Re: Have mercy on a butterfingered noob...

Post by me_in_japan » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:41 am

Just wait until you snap off a drill bit inside a mini and and have the momentum shove the torn stump of the drill into your thumb. You will discover new cuss words, I assure you :(

And as konrad says, greenstuffing is quite addictive. I can go for months without doing any, but all of a sudden the muse takes me and I'm off. Also, it's good you've already tried cutting off bits that didn't work. Took me ages to try that. A useful tip, btw, is to mix milliput and green stuff. (You can get milliput in the art store on queen st. Basic red and white box is good.) milliput is the same, basically, as GS, but dries much harder and can be sanded to get a perfect smooth surface, and (critically) is water soluble when not cured, so you can use a wet fingertip to smooth edges onto existing plastic surfaces to get a perfect join. However, it has no stretch to it, unlike GS. Mixing GS and milliput gives you the best of both worlds. You can jig about with the ratio to suit your needs.

Don't fret about details at this stage. Aim for basic building blocks, and once you're happy with that add the fiddles on top.

Anyway - pics, please, or it didn't happen :)
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Re: Have mercy on a butterfingered noob...

Post by Konrad » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:03 am

Like MIJ says, mixing putties is always an option. A smidge of MIlliput in your greenstuff can make it a bit easier to work with. When smoothing, it gives it almost a soapy sort of feel. But it is a bit time consuming fiddling with it.
I've been using Procreate "grey stuff" recently. Like greenstuff, but a bit stiffer, seems to cure a bit quicker and has less of that gummy, greenstuff stretch. Has a sort of waxy quality to it.
...and now his Head was full of nothing but Inchantments, Quarrels, Battles, Challenges, Wounds, Complaints, Amours, and abundance of Stuff and Impossibilities.....
Cervantes, Don Quixote

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