40K in Nagoya, or Things Can Only Get Meta.

[Primarch]

After a recent post in one of the Joshin threads, I've been thinking about the current state of the meta-game in Nagoya. Now, this thread will mainly relate to the Joshin group as that is where most of us are likely to play pick-up style games, but for those of you further afield, feel free to chip in as well.

7th Edition has been with us for a while now (8th Edition is probably not too far off. - Joking, I hope), and more than any other edition, I think it has brought about a lot of changes in how we build our forces and what we should expect on the tabletop. Dataslates, formations, supplemental and mini-codecies all bring new options to a lot of armies. Super Heavy vehicles and Gargantuan creatures are included in the core rules as options for Combined Arms Detachments (what the long time 40K players would recognise as the old FOC). Everyone can take allies and can ally with pretty much anything or anyone.

NagoyaHammer, as an event is a little restrictive, mainly to help games run smoothly, quickly and provide an environment where everyone can have fun and knows what to expect.
Similarly, when playing at someone's home players are free to organise whatever style or type of game they want. Of course, you can do this at Joshin as well, but with the time constraints and other games going on, it's sometimes easier to just bring along your standard army and slug it out with a minimum of negotiation.

At games since 7th dropped I've seen a lot of stuff on the tables that made me think 'I'd rather not play that without some warning.' Multiple fliers, armies of nothing but tanks, massive super heavies and so forth. Don't get me wrong, I can field all that and more (compulsive obsessive purchasing can be good at times), but it's not something I would have usually planned to bring along myself.


So, after all that waffle, we get to my point. What do you consider fair game in a standard pick-up game? What do you think merits giving your opponent a heads up about your list first? What is an average size game and what points level do you build your army towards? Multiple detachments/formations are acceptable or should players come along expecting to play against just one?

I'm not aiming to limit what people use, I would just like to get an idea on what everyone considers a 'usual' game is.

Thanks for reading.
P.

[Spevna]

Personally,I consider a usual game to be one that uses an FOC.
Anything outside of that, I would like prior warning.

Springing a table full of tanks on someone is it a bit douchey though.

[job]

Personally, I think nobody has done anything dirty or broken.

Most everyone who is playing in our group has played FoC. Otherwise they have played Unbound do to not having the proper models yet or as a one off thing. (Personally I've always played within FoC with an occasional formation from the Dreadnaught PDFs.)

Flyers are now just part of the game. To be honest I think you are taking a big chance putting multiple things in reserve. And it might be really bad if your opponent has a unit with the intercept rule. Otherwise they can be dealt with and most are fragile.

Lords of War: I'll play against it but it I'd like prior warning.

Broken things: please don't play it, but on the other hand, I guess part of the game is finding effective counters to things like Riptides and Eldar Jetbikes. Anyway, nobody has used these things in a broken way.

FoC: I prefer it, but I've played against two Unbound lists. No foul.

Time: yeah that can be a problem, but I guess we all work on playing faster. Truly I believe the biggest problem is there are too many rules that big things down for most of us occasional players.

I think overall 7th-8th Ed has been a pleasant experience. Sure there are now way too many rules IMHO, but there are things like Malestrom missions which are really pleasnt surprises. And I really enjoy playing against you all.

[job]

Oh, my only suggestion for 'usual games' is you should always tell your opponent in advance which faction you are playing. There are so many rules these days so it would really help I think if people have a chance to gander what they might be facing.

[jus]

Good topic this! I always give whoever I'm playing full disclosure on everything I'm taking to a game, before it happens. This let's players know what to take and (hopefully, if they are friendly reasonable people) what not to take. This is somewhat of a token of good faith that let's the opposing player know that you're not out to get'em, and really takes the razor's edge off the competitiveness of the game and makes for a great opportunity for narrative gaming. Also, according to the rules, discussing a game before hand with your opposing player is actually part of the game now.

The only time I don't do this is when I design both lists, whereby the game will be played with my minis and will always be balanced(as much as possible)

If A san gets a bloodthirster, give B San ...a landraider or something

[kojibear]

There is something to be said for enjoying the surprise when you don't know what you are facing. You have to use the units you have in a new way to try and meet the various threats.

Mind you as Job said, our group of gamers tends to bring quite balanced lists - in general - so the 'surprise' is not so bad that you fall flat on the floor from fainting

Themed lists are cool, too, if that was the inspiration for lists that break from the standard Force Organisation Chart. I think lists that take only the strongest things for the sake of winning is OK - not my particular style of game though - but in such case it would be nicer to tell your opponent that that is the kind of list you are bringing.

Allies have always been something I am not such a fan of. If it is a narrative scenario then that is cool, but filling out our list with allies so that you get the best of both worlds is a not so cool.

There are strong units in every army - true that some have more than others. However, 40k is inherently unbalanced so you can expect the balance of power to sway with each codex and rules edition that come out. It is just up to the players to keep it in check and play to have fun. Play for the win sure, it is a game after all, but always keep in mind the enjoyment of the other person on the other side of the table. If you both have fun then nobody really loses!

We all have our days though, when the dice just aren't rolling in our favour, or we forget just how good a particular unit is and then we get splatted by them. At those times we all lose our cool at some point or another. But our group of gamers is a really good group of people and I have rarely seen bad sportsmanship. I am proud to be a member of Nagoya Hammer.

One thing I try not to do if I can catch myself doing it - which I do and we all do, mostly just for a bit of friendly banter but sometimes due to frustration and bad dice rolls, is commenting too much about how good a person's army or unit is while they are playing. Especially in our group, people take stuff because they love it fluff wise or model wise. When you remind someone of how over powered or under costed their unit is while playing, it can make them feel stink because that is probably not why they bought and painted it up in the first place. But hey, if someone does take six of the nastiest fliers or the like - then a bit of playful banter is well warranted!

Anyway, I love narrative games. Forging a narrative is a cool way to play!

[The Underdweller]

This is a hard call, for sure. I would have nothing against PMing my list to anyone I am playing beforehand, but I can see Koji's point that sometimes it is fun to be surprised. A standard sized game is around 1500 points, for me.

I think I would ask my opponent before bringing an unbound list (which I can see as fun to play sometimes, even if I have enough models not to), or a Superheavy (not that I have any), or a particularly broken formation or the like. I would bring a Riptide along if I was playing a largish Tau game - but I wouldn't bring 3. Would people consider bringing one Riptide broken?

Anyway, as everyone says people around here are generally don't bring super competitive lists, so I am not too worried .

Oh, and Job, I was planning to bringing a Battleforged Tyranids list with a small number of Tau allies (For which I have a fluff reason - but mainly because I want to play Tyranids a few more times before Nagoyahammer, but I miss playing Tau) No Riptides!

[komura]

At playing with beginners club, we'd recommend sticking the rule Combined arms and FOC.
At my personal opinion, Any thing acceptable, if both player agreed prior to game.

[komura]

Additionally, the circumstance of NH is beginner friendly. We thank it.
At the game point, we usually adjust the lower point gamer. For instance,
one our gamer can bring there 800 PT, that's maximum limit of that game.

[me_in_japan]

A good question, prim. I can only comment based on my own experiences, but for what it's worth:

Formations, supplements and detachments are all good. I've never used any myself, but I can't see any difference between showing up with an Iyanden army full of seers and wraiththings and showing up with a regular Eldar army full of eg aspect warriors. Just cos it's a supplement doesn't make it any less valid, or any more powerful. Detachments allow for specific wierd army builds that would be impossible under a standardised FOC (harlequins being a good example -they have no HQ in their entire codex.)

As for what units you use in your army, I'm not keen on spam for the sake of winning. I think it makes for a boring game for both players. Flyers, however, are fine. I don't think they're overpowered in general, and even if you don't have AA guns you can generally get away with just ignoring them and get on with killerating the rest of the army. I'd put land raiders in a similar category to flyers, and people have been using those without criticism for years.

Allies are fine, I think. The use of allies has really opened the game up to how it should be played (in my opinion, of course). Daemons can now ally with CSM, marines can ally with IG, Eldar with dark Eldar, etc. Having tried to make allied lists myself at 1500 or 1750 pts, it's really hard to fit in all the shinies from both armies. What usually happens is the allies detachment gets bits removed from it so I can put in all the cool stuff I want from my primary detachment. So I feel the points limit keeps ally shenanigans from getting out of control.

Super heavies are, I think, a separate issue. Kinda. At 1500 pts or so their points cost is highly prohibitive. If you bring one, that's likely to be half or more of your points. The question then becomes "can player B kill player A's stormsword with the equivalent points value of his army?" This will come down to luck. If player B knows the stormsword is coming then yeah, he/she will have packed a ton of melta and that stormsword is a gonner, which makes it a bit pointless taking one and then telling your opponent about it. Otoh, if you don't tell the opponent then maybe they brought a bunch of heavy bolters or similar uselessness. It's a tricky one, I think. Maybe super heavies are best limited to only-over-xxxx-points games? I dunno.